TCM and tongue diagnosis

Rum, beer, women, movies, nice websites, gaming, etc., without interrupting the flow of martial threads.

TCM and tongue diagnosis

Postby everything on Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:00 am

How much do you of RSF know about TCM tongue diagnosis, if anything?

TCM says the appearance of the tongue tells you something about what's happening with your body due to meridian connections etc. I used to have a lot of white coating which seemed to correspond to digestion issues and "dampness". at least in hindsight, it makes perfect sense. Now I have only partial coating that's thin and white, which seems odd to me. Like partly "damp", partly "heat". Hmmm. I realize rsf isn't my TCM doctor, but that's kind of odd, isn't it. It seems to mean some yin deficiency in some spot, some yang deficiency in some other spot, at the same time. .... wellllll tai chi to balance everything is apparently needed along with certain foods.

Here's a random internet link:
https://www.euyansang.com/en_US/tales-t ... osis1.html
Last edited by everything on Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5775
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: TCM and tongue diagnosis

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:48 am

Before I learned noi gung I had to fast until my tongue was clear
My teacher was a tcm practitioner,osteopath and chiropractor
Tongue diagnosis is a part of overall differential diagnosis it is no more connected to the meridians than any other part of the body
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3751
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: TCM and tongue diagnosis

Postby everything on Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:02 pm

Wayne do you remember the details of your fast? I'm not sure I'll try it, but interested to know.

For my particular case, it's annoying that I have this "partial" situation, but it's also quite interesting. When my digestion was quite bad in my 20s (maybe eating too much dairy + beef and almost no vegetables (think Philly cheesesteaks)), the coating was white and thick .... really interesting.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5775
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: TCM and tongue diagnosis

Postby Peacedog on Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:40 pm

Here are a couple of basic charts on tongue diagnosis.

In theory you could link channels to the organs and their respective areas of the tongue. But I've generally found the tongue to be more indicative of organ, vice channel, dysfunction.

Image

Image

The tongue is normally one of two main diagnostics used. The other being pulse. Some other less often used systems include face reading , eye reading, abdominal palpation and palpating the channels in the extremities to name just a few.

Pulse and tongue are consulted together to come up with a comprehensive diagnosis.

Generally speaking, the pulse changes faster than the tongue. Both can fool you depending upon what drugs the person is taking (prescription, OTC and illegal).

A tongue coating is usually an indication of some kind of phlegm in the system as well.

Without a lot of training, try not to read too much into this. Reading the tongue and pulse are arts unto themselves.
Last edited by Peacedog on Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Peacedog
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1932
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 5:22 am
Location: Standing right next to your girl....

Re: TCM and tongue diagnosis

Postby everything on Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:20 pm

Fascinating, thanks for the diagrams.

I have a thicker bit of white coat in a spot on the left side of my tongue. If I had to guess it matches bits of the Qi deficiency and Yang deficiency pictures. What’s weird is the asymmetry.

A few times in the past month, it’s looked normal, which surprised me more.

Phlegm in my system makes sense due to allergy season.

Well, yeah I can’t self diagnose, but it’s fascinating, and I have no idea what I did differently when it looked so normal. Possibly Qi gong felt better at those times. I’ll start tracking....
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5775
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: TCM and tongue diagnosis

Postby edededed on Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:12 pm

I have a beautiful (?) tongue diagnosis book. However, my tongue pretty much either is pink or slightly pale - not much to read about there.

Most of the photos are horrible, twisted, discolored, bizarre tongues. Even someone with no knowledge at all should be able to guess that anyone with such a tongue is quite sick.

But how to use the tongue diagnosis to diagnose more average sicknesses better?
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4015
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

Re: TCM and tongue diagnosis

Postby Peacedog on Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:17 pm

It's a skill. I wouldn't say it takes the four years required in school, but you probably need to see a good 500-700 tongues to get it consistently.

Also, geographic location has a lot to do with what you see in the average patient pool.
Peacedog
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1932
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 5:22 am
Location: Standing right next to your girl....

Re: TCM and tongue diagnosis

Postby shenxinhei on Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:55 pm

Could post a picture of your tongue. However, it's important to understand that TCM diagnosis is more of process than a single element and consists of :
asking questions about your condition and constitution; classically including questions about 10 key areas
observing; face, tongue, body etc.
listening (and smelling); ex. coughing, body odor, secretions etc.
palpation; primarily pulse diagnosis-classically there were actually many different pulses taken but last few hundred years has focused more on
palpation of radial artery at the wrist and said to correspond to specific body systems

A funky looking tongue is not necessarily any cause for concern as it's a very individual thing. It's more about changes in the tongue over time from a TCM perspective. And in western medicine it can be quite significant too. For example the so-called black, hairy tongue sometimes associated with chronic antibiotic use or the atrophy of the "taste buds" (red, coatless tongue) seen with atrophic gastritis. At times, China has promoted TCM in the west with museum exhibits showing bunches of tongues. Like everything in TCM, practitioners have strong preferences for certain methods to determine pattern diagnosis and many don't even use the tongue while others only use tongue. That's one of the things that makes TCM both fascinating and frustrating.
shenxinhei
Santi
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:46 pm

Re: TCM and tongue diagnosis

Postby everything on Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:40 pm

Hmm yeah, obviously I'm not going to see a TCM doctor in person at the moment. But it's a fascinating subject. I'll also add get "normal tongue" to a long list of health, wellness, fitness, relaxation, etc. life goals.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5775
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: TCM and tongue diagnosis

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:12 am

Everything,sorry I'm late in getting back to you
I started by doing a full netti
Drinking salt water until nothing came out the other end but clear water
I did certain exercises to aid this process
I then lined the gut with ghee
For the next 24 days I lived on Apple carrot and celery juice
I finished the fast when my tongue was clear
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3751
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: TCM and tongue diagnosis

Postby everything on Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:37 am

Really interesting, thanks a lot. I won't do this exact process (my system doesn't like dairy for one), but I can certainly improve and do more fruit and vegetables. It's really interesting he had you do what I think of as this "health reset"/baseline before proceeding with training. I kind of think of that as analogous to prehab and correct some stability/mobility before strengthening (for muscles, joints, ligaments, tendons).

Update mainly for myself, but in case anyone is still following.
Yesterday, I did a lot of exercise, mainly cardio. Ate more vegetarian-based, little meat, with more krill oil and a liver supplement. Woke up, tongue coating was much thinner ... still in the same pattern - a little more coating on left side, but overall looking more normal.
Last edited by everything on Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5775
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: TCM and tongue diagnosis

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:25 pm

Slippery elm bark can be used instead of ghee
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3751
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: TCM and tongue diagnosis

Postby everything on Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:30 pm

Oh very cool, I'd never heard of it before. Will look into.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5775
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: TCM and tongue diagnosis

Postby Trick on Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:08 pm

Can be simple like, When brushing the teeth the just simply brush the tongue too.
So no need for long a week to live on just celery juice, or several sessions of probably costly tongue analyses....
Just put some Colgate on the brush and brush.....

And to be friendly to the digestive system -“drink” your food, meaning chew it throughoutly, in this way one actually do not feel often hungry and eat too often a day, the digestive system can more easily/effectively handle and extract all the necessary nutrients from the food.
And if I remember correctly, you(everything) have had your gallbladder removed, then chewing the food throuhoutly is even more important.
Also if you’re a fan of Taijiquan, learn it properly and it works smoothly good for ones digestion and metabolism. Yang-shi Taijiquan recommended.

Daily drinking green tea also proves good for the environment in ones mouth and overall health. Drink it as the Chinese and Trick does. Put a hefty pinch of tea leafs in a cup and drink from that all day long, just refill with freshly boiled water. And as you “drink” your food, you should “eat” the beverage.
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 3528
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: TCM and tongue diagnosis

Postby everything on Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:11 am

yeah I've always brushed my tongue, but that isn't really the difference maker afaik since the tongue still varies a lot despite my brushing habit. "drinking" food sounds good for sure. yup, I don't have a gallbladder, which was kind of an ultimate evidence point for me that years of not-great diet indeed affected me a lot (and coincided with this outward tongue appearance). for whatever reason (no idea), woke up today, much more normal looking again. anyway, if it is an indicator of "wellness", the real goal here is "wellness", but I'm fascinated by this "indicator". on a tangent, my resting HR has gone up a few ticks during stay-at-home ... not enough hard cardio now w/o sports, ugh. gotta replace that with something else.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5775
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Next

Return to Off the Topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Trick and 26 guests