Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Postby everything on Sun May 03, 2020 8:35 am

It's equally good to make up crazy hippie theories or biomechanical theories, I suppose.
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Re: Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Postby Yeung on Wed May 06, 2020 1:39 pm

everything wrote:It's equally good to make up crazy hippie theories or biomechanical theories, I suppose.

The advantage here is if you try you will be corrected very quickly.
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Re: Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Postby everything on Wed May 06, 2020 4:50 pm

I certainly hope hippie theories and "unique" biomechanical theories of "internal" are corrected.
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Re: Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Postby everything on Wed May 06, 2020 4:58 pm

Yeung wrote:
http://www.educationworld.com/a_lesson/ ... e029.shtml

In “Total Aikido” by Gazo Shioda (1997), there is an experiment entitled “Anyone can do it, with a little know-how and is not Ki”. It sort of demonstrated if you open your hand and stretch out the arm as hard as possible (eccentrically) is much more difficult to bend compare to a straight arm with fist close and contract a hard as possible (concentrically).


It sounds like this person doesn't understand what "eccentric" and "concentric" are. If you are straightening your arm, the tricep would be using concentric movement. If you are "lowering" weight with you arm upside down so that you do a "bicep" curl resisting the load with your triceps, that would be eccentric. That wouldn't apply here unless the "unbendable arm" is a "slowly bending" arm. :'( ??? :-\ :-[ Maybe he meant isometric or maybe he meant something else.
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Re: Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Postby Yeung on Thu May 07, 2020 6:36 am

I do not know much about Aikido but it is an interesting experiment. You have to try it out to confirm the difference, theory and practice go together. So try it and find out.
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Re: Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Postby Bhassler on Thu May 07, 2020 6:46 am

Yeung wrote:I do not know much about Aikido but it is an interesting experiment. You have to try it out to confirm the difference, theory and practice go together. So try it and find out.


Whether it works or not, it won't change the fact that the words the author is using don't mean what he says they mean. A thing can work and still have the theory around why it works be completely wrong. There used to be a prevalent theory that the rising and setting of the sun was caused by a god riding his chariot across the sky. Almost everyone today would agree that's a wrong theory, yet it never seemed to affect the cycle of day and night.

Almost any theory can be seen as valid when viewed through a sufficiently myopic lens. If you really want to put together an academically or scientifically valid theory, a good first step might be learning the correct words to use to describe things.
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Re: Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Postby Yeung on Fri May 08, 2020 2:42 am

Action speaks louder than words.
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Re: Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Postby Bhassler on Fri May 08, 2020 6:54 am

Classic. You're presenting yourself as an academic publishing all these papers with theory on taiji, and when you get challenged on any of what you wrote, the only thing you can come up with is "action speaks louder than words."
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Re: Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Postby everything on Fri May 08, 2020 8:24 am

if you direct your arm to go "out" in a perpendicular direction, not just using triceps concentric straightening but your shoulder/chest/forearm/"whole body"/"qi", it's easier to keep it straight. it's also easier if you do this when arm wrestling. I think every MA student already knows this except for the qi part. maybe that person was trying to describe that as "eccentric" (but this term seems incorrect, or at minimum, insufficient).
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Re: Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Postby Yeung on Sat May 09, 2020 7:48 am

Bhassler wrote:Classic. You're presenting yourself as an academic publishing all these papers with theory on taiji, and when you get challenged on any of what you wrote, the only thing you can come up with is "action speaks louder than words."


The falsification theory states that a statement is meaningful or scientific if it is falsifiable by experience or observation. This work will therefore be concerned with the analysis and a critical examination of Karl Popper’s falsification theory. Popper summits that the more a theory is falsified, the more it becomes scientific.
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Re: Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Postby yeniseri on Sun May 10, 2020 12:12 pm

Bhassler wrote:Classic. You're presenting yourself as an academic publishing all these papers with theory on taiji, and when you get challenged on any of what you wrote, the only thing you can come up with is "action speaks louder than words."


My approach when I do my little sharing on yangshengong practices (taijiquan, neigong, qigong, etc ;D is to use the original work and then based on my understanding of what the text is attemptng to say, find the appropriate Western view/approach/reality/equivalent (deconstruction for lack of a better word) that 'explains' the concept.

An example, in the principle of "gong" in taijiquan, qigong, etc practice where one does the equivalent of 100 days practice to see some benefit in what one does, or in owning a form/routine. Based on that concept that I believe I have a handle on, I equate this to a concept of exercise prescription, where one needs to follow a regimen x times a day, for x months to see some verifiable effect, meaning a subjective betterment scale, a measured variable or a documented change per the practice of x yangshengong routine. The original Chinese descriptive does not go into all of that jargon but the principle present and its analogy is related to exercise prescriptive training meaning the frequency and duration over time of x activity will elicit some change. That being said even the 100 days may not mean 100 days (it means quite a few months ??? ) as a general 'idea' that said days can be longer or shorter based on the subjective elements one has discovered to reach that 'flow" mind stage of development. In short, the theory of gong is its equivalent in the principles of exercise prescription providing one is engaging in 'chronic' taijiquan, qigong or other similar training!

In some of my training, I often evoke the work of Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, as a Western unified concept on what may be the confusion of qi (even in my own delusion ;D !
http://eweaver.myweb.usf.edu/2002-Flow.pdf

Some qigong training specifies standing in certain cardinal directions (north/south/east/west) to get an effect so my inquiring mind attempts to find a similar concept in Western science per explanation of this concept. My immediate response is a concept of chronotherapy (not quite equal but still a match at some level) where exercising or taking medication at certain times of the day allows for better outcome meaning circadian rhythms have an effect on individuals based on health status, sickness/disease, etc. I am aware that certain ethnic groups need more doses of certain drugs (1x/day vs 3x/day) due to their own biology, or that taking drug x in the morning for x group is better than taking a pm does hence chronotherapy in taijiquan/.qigong practice is useful in most but not all! Obviously exercising at midnight is foolish though I have been know to do that at times.
See PubMed on Chronotherapy/Chronobiology

NOTE: I do alot of searching on Baidu but translations are always weird and lack a coherent system. Just be sure to have your virusware active, as necessary

All I am doing is equating certain 'archaic principles of yangshengong practices, which appear to be lacking in 'conceptual reality' per our "western oriented mentality, where we want to see the bridge that unites the theory with actual usage and how do we accomplish that function seamlessly.
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Re: Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Postby Yeung on Tue May 12, 2020 10:09 am

From PositivePsychology.com:

How Can We Measure Flow?

"Flow is a subjective experience, which creates a challenge when it comes to identifying psychometrically sound measurement (Jackson, Martin, & Eklund, 2008). Moreover, because the enjoyable experience of flow represents both the reason for and outcome of engaging in an activity (Seifert, & Hedderson, 2009), its measurement represents an additional challenge for researchers.
Given its subjectivity, the most common way to measure flow is by asking respondents about their experiences, which has been achieved via the following methods:

"Interview questionnaires;
Experience sampling methods; and
Self-report questionnaires."

There is always the reliability and validity question needs to be addressed in social science research methods.
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Re: Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Postby yeniseri on Wed May 13, 2020 9:03 am

Excellent points!

Flow is nothing new but its construct has existed previously (as you know)! The main distinction is the attempt to define and 'quantify' under a common descriptive. Direct ways will be difficult since numerial data are lacking but in'indirect ways, under another descriptive such as Meditative Movement (Larkey et al-see PubMed)) and its categores that allows for the levels of its beneficial effects, both objective (data tabulation and subjective status of participant.
I am using a taijiquan (tai ch) example: some points as follows:
- Tai chi is slow and relaxing and seems simple enough but there is more behing the movement(s)
- There is no chi (qi) in tai chi (taijiquan)
- But there is based onthe borrowing from daoyin, yangsheng movement tradition
- Why was qi (concept) borrowed from that yangsheng tradition
- Tai chi soft, good for anxiety, depression
- How to measure; well, do form and see how long biomarkers of anxiety, depression takes to lower endpoints (objective criteria)
- We know cortisol is an inflammatory marker so do form and see if it is lowered. at baseline, do blood pressure and pulse and also check for lowereing of aforementioned.
- We know that doing aform can descrese vagal modulation so a pattern develops that even though "New Taiji" has been around for 60 years, those same elements have been in force for those practicing it for over a century.
- All movemnt is the same, bending one's arm/hand, etc is no different in tai chi than any other tasks involving that action. Use while bending the hand/arm/form appears to be unique based on specific action e.g. as in rou shou, tui shou, stc
These are all rhetorical statements just meant to evoke thought! ???

Per their respective social milieu, both qi (concept) and Flow (concept), the attempt is to describe an experience that we all 'feel' sense' , intuit, etc (at one time or another, or at specific intervals, or when doing x task(s).
Both have their context of experience and it has its paradox (Flow) where there is an acknowledgement that the following has been accomplished.
1. Continued participation in the activity
2. Repeated sensations implying some type of uber positive feedback through (gong-sounds familiar)
3. A degree of 'difficulty' and overcoming that difficluty in accomplishing of task
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Re: Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Postby everything on Wed May 13, 2020 9:16 am

as soon as we say qi is a concept, the main thing is lost (in translation or in general). it's like wanting to talk about the car transmission, the gearing, and ignoring the engine and fuel. but for some reason (maybe because biomechanics is the "easiest" part to explain), we go heavy on transmission or gearing. it's not a bad question (gearing is essentially leverage), as long as we don't say transmission is the main point. why does everyone ignore step 1. step 1 is the key step. it's ok to me if you say "I am beyond that" but if you deliberately ignore or don't understand step 1, you need to back to it.
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/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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