Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

[middleway]

This occurance and sitting back and observing the forum here and there for a few months has highlighted something to me. Its hard to see in the thick of it, when we are caught up in arguments about this arm position or that, but it seems to be a clear truth as soon as we step out of the thick of online arguments for a little while.

The problem as I see it is that the "IMAist" and even the "CMAist" in general, now venerates and values the ability to move, above the ability to fight ... but has also been led to believe, or formed the belief, that the ability to move = the ability to fight.

Assessments of these arts are measured in the way forms are done, the shenfa used in moving around in the air, the ability to make a spear wobble about. The spine straightness here, the Kwa movement there, the knee here, the arm there. The conversations about IMA on this Forum are almost exclusively regarding this, often with some incling that the reason it is so important is for fighting... Of course there is also the odd thread from Sifu Wang thrown in there, keeping things honest.

Then 9 times out of 10 when exponents with well held demonstrations of body skill show fighting applications, they are exposed to anyone familiar with fighting (sport or street).

Of the people I have met personally from the traditional arts who could really fight and those I have reliably heard are badasses, most had pretty shitty forms, most wouldnt be winning any precision contests for the placement of their hand or the plumb straightness of their spine ... But they would fare well in a contest such as this.

Now, there really is nothing wrong with preferencing the movement art, the body control, the internal development ... but we shouldnt seriously believe that this produces a fighter or even fighting skill in a non fighter.

This is what i think happens in these types of bouts. These people have spent a lifetime developing body methods that they think = fighting skill.

Regarding this specific fight. I absolutely dont feel sorry for the guy and i am at a complete loss as to why anyone would. At 65 years old, I hope that i will know my limits and what i can and cannot do. I hope that most other people will be wise enough too...

Steve Morris Pummeled a 20 something MMA fighter who challenged him in one of his seminars in his late 60's ... he knew, and knows what he can do.

I find these sorts of videos sad events, not because of the old boy getting an ass whooping. But because the events themselves, and often the post fight discussions are further indicators of what some of my teachers used to say .... "In most cases, and for most people - These fighting arts are completely dead. The sad thing is everyone believes they are the ones who have the alive part... until they get punched in the face."

Peace all.

[middleway]

Absolutely agree mate. My point was more that he had likely fallen into that trap, perfecting what he clearly thought was good body skill ... and before he knows it he is unconscious.

[dspyrido]

I've never "physically" met you either, Mr whatever your name is, but from what I've read, I don't really want to either. Anyway... back to the topic.

Yes from reading your posts I can see why you wouldn't want to meet me either.

I OTOH would welcome it.

[dspyrido]

Absolutely agree mate. My point was more that he had likely fallen into that trap, perfecting what he clearly thought was good body skill ... and before he knows it he is unconscious.

I completely agree with your sentiment. I disagree not with you but with the many posts that people move well. I don't think they do. There are so many ima clips of slow movement, no power, floating postures etc.

Maybe I'm also biased but when i see people doing a few solo forms and talking about power, kua, fascia, dantien, chi or position for 10 minutes I just lose interest. Mostly because I can hardly remember these solo videos looking like there is any inherent power at all. They frankly appear like exercises in delusion or self promotion. I would estimate only a small handful of clips show any real body conditioning and effort has gone into making the forms applicable.

At least against a bag or partner there might be a sense of impact but in most ima clips even partnered stuff is just nonsense pushing without any follow thorough.

Also in most of the challenge matches they frankly are decripid folks who can't move for shit.
They are floating, stiff, slow or have no power. Not to mention any ring craft, evasion or even just keeping their hands up.

[C.J.W.]

The way I see it, since CMA is a multi-faceted product of traditional Chinese culture, it is perfectly acceptable to practice it for non-fighting purposes.

Problems airse, however, when practitioners who are obviously non-fighters start to make pompous claims about their non-existing fighting prowess and deceive their students into believing that doing forms and cooperative two-man training (e.g., PH, chisao, roushou, etc.) alone will turn you into a lethal fighting machine.

What Ma should have done (if he had half a brain) was to let people know that he is just a 70-year-old senior who practices and teaches CMA for health, and has no interest in the combative aspect of the art.

But since he chose to advertise himself as a fighter and even went so far as to hire a British pro mma guy to shoot fake fighting footage in which he appears to dominate, that 30 second knockout certainly served him right.

[aamc]

In the what 10, 15 years there are forum boards I've seen some variation of the question; CMA don't know how to fight, CMA can't be used in the ring, CMA isn't practical. Yet here we are still training.... The question will continue to reappear. I'd long ago stopped worrying about it, because I don't represent anyone but myself. I don't know why as a chinese martial artist you are meant to represent a wide continuum of practitioners training for different reasons. Is the expectation the same in other arts, I'd guess not. This video is just that a deluded 70 year old getting himself knocked out. It doesn't represent me, it doesn't represent what I do. It just shows a man out of his depth.

[yeniseri]

https://youtu.be/TG7skhO6o88

Usually, I try to be pc but that is fuc&ed up taiji on all counts! Look like he has a tick bite on his arse and shoulders! WTF
Do I get a 50% discount for my next class on his style of xxx. I believe I could fix some of what I see

[Trick]

Karate was supposed to be on the program during this summer Olympic, but for the 2024 Paris summer Olympic we will see brakedance taking its place.....if he’s still alive and kicking he might be an contender https://3g.163.com/v/video/VV0IEJIEQ.html

[.Q.]

"Master's" student claiming he was poisoned by some legendary fictional poison from Wuxia novels before the fight. He wants revenge.


Master comparing slaughtering pigs (literally) to killing people (15:36). Bragging he killed many pigs while he served the military. I tried to find a clip that just contained that interview but couldn't.


Personally, I enjoy seeing frauds get exposed, martial art scams or any other kind.

[windwalker]

In the what 10, 15 years there are forum boards I've seen some variation of the question; CMA don't know how to fight, CMA can't be used in the ring, CMA isn't practical. Yet here we are still training.... The question will continue to reappear. I'd long ago stopped worrying about it, because I don't represent anyone but myself. I don't know why as a chinese martial artist you are meant to represent a wide continuum of practitioners training for different reasons. Is the expectation the same in other arts, I'd guess not. This video is just that a deluded 70 year old getting himself knocked out. It doesn't represent me, it doesn't represent what I do. It just shows a man out of his depth.

To understand this, might want to check out the culture from which CMA comes from.
collective vs individual.

As to the gen question

“Do you know that even when you look at a tree and say, `That is an oak tree', or `that is a banyan tree', the naming of the tree, which is botanical knowledge, has so conditioned your mind that the word comes between you and actually seeing the tree? To come in contact with the tree you have to put your hand on it and the word will not help you to touch it.”
― Jiddu Krishnamurti, Freedom from the Known

Over the yrs the focus of IMA in gen has changed. The "tree" talked about never really experienced.
JW among others has consistently pointed this out. "theory vs usage" or actual examples of it in use.

Don't view those in the clips as "frauds"

a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

They believe in what they do, but have not apparently been challenged on what they do.
Which is not IMO bad even for students...

All people at some point have to proof or question their own studies.

“Truth has no path, and that is the beauty of truth, it is living. A dead thing has a path to it because it is static, but when you see that the truth is something living, moving, which has no resting place, which is in no temple, mosque or church, which no religion, no teacher, no philosopher, nobody can lead you to - then you will also see that this living thing is what you actually are.”
― Jiddu Krishnamurti, Freedom from the Known

as some say when "fist meets face"

one will understand a truth or help others to understand truth.

[suckinlhbf]

might want to check out the culture from which CMA comes from.

It would be interesting to check out the sources, development, and cultural changes of CMA. Honestly, seeing CMA masters' asses being kicked is not all bad. I have seen CMA grand masters training for a few decades locked out by somebody learns boxing for three months or by street guys never learnt any kungfu. I have seen some guys with no Dans beat up those 6, 7th... Dans masters in the Chinese Wushu Duanwei System. Some people enjoy being brain-washed and then brain wash their students. However, there are some CMA guys who can really make use of their skills in a combat. The IMArtists should ask themselves what do they want, and how to do it right. And should have an attitude to enjoy being beaten up.

[wayne hansen]

Moral not a word often associated with myself
I was not having a go at the person who posted it here
I was asking a question about people who post these things all over the web
It is quite easy to understand people outside the art publishing it but those inside I find a little harder
There is a clip I have seen which I can't find at present of the guy who gets knocked out doing 5 moves from the Chen style as fast as he can
One look at this clip and you can see what the outcome of a fight will be
He has little to do with my training the outcome doesn't effect me one way or the other
I honestly wonder why people in general feel the need to show this crap
I don't get around much these days so I don't know who these people are
It just seems funny to me that each of these people who gets knocked out it is usually the first time I have heard of them
They don't seem to have any preliminary fights before their world title match
They are not high ranking in any tai chi system
No people young or old seem to step up and take up their place
I just find the whole thing curious

[suckinlhbf]

They are not high ranking in any tai chi system

Those high ranking people know how to protect themselves from fall. I met a 8th Dan masters. He started on how to fight but changed the tune to train for health right the way after crossing hands. Then walked away saying we are not on the same path. The memory on what high ranking people said after Lei Lei vs Xu is still fresh.

[marvin8]

I was not having a go at the person who posted it here
I was asking a question about people who post these things all over the web

I didn't think you were and took it as you just explained.

I honestly wonder why people in general feel the need to show this crap

A variety of opinions were expresed: CMA is effective. But, charlatans need to be exposed, because they are giving CMA a bad reputation. ... The public (e.g., potential or current students) needs be protected from these so called self defense masters. ... CMA (in general not the 1%'s) needs to wake up and look at it's training regimen given CMAists with reported years of CMA training can't compete with non-ranked MMAist, boxers, hobbyists, etc.

II don't get around much these days so I don't know who these people are
It just seems funny to me that each of these people who gets knocked out it is usually the first time I have heard of them
They don't seem to have any preliminary fights before their world title match
They are not high ranking in any tai chi system ...
No people young or old seem to step up and take up their place

But, have you heard of their competitors? It was not a "world title match." It was a match against a publicized master of tai chi (whether true or not) with reported years of IMA training against a "not high ranking" sanda hobbyist.

Per some CMAists, combat sports or competition is not real fighting because it has rules, CMA is self defense not a sport. Doesn't this mean CMAists do not need "any preliminary fights" in order to defend themselves? The mechanics of defending against a right hand in a match on concrete are the same as in the streets. Ma Baoguo showed little self defense ability, was knocked unconscious, could have easily received permanent brain damage or died in the match.

They are not high ranking in any tai chi system

Those high ranking people know how to protect themselves from fall. I met a 8th Dan masters. He started on how to fight but changed the tune to train for health right the way after crossing hands. Then walked away saying we are not on the same path. The memory on what high ranking people said after Lei Lei vs Xu is still fresh.

Watching Ma's fight can help people (e.g., non-experts, general public) make a more well-informed decision whether they want to learn or continue to learn from Ma, as some said Ma's demonstrations and lectures were misleading. That's not to say Ma's curriculum is effective or not or that people go to Ma to learn self defense.

Without seeing Ma's fight, people may unknowingly join his school and possibly lose their time, money, opportunity to learn honest self defense or even their life.

[wayne hansen]

https://youtu.be/4hRNG4VYcLc