Trick wrote:is it the sanchin kata in both videos ?(cant see the videos)....As i remember reading the little info therebwas back before the internet(back when i was into karate) Seisan(13) was thought to be the oldes kata in okinawan karate, at least that was the kata that was supposedly taught to beginners, however another early kata is the Naihanchi that is also said to have been the first kata a karate student was taught ...
marvin8 wrote:Trick wrote:is it the sanchin kata in both videos ?(cant see the videos)....As i remember reading the little info therebwas back before the internet(back when i was into karate) Seisan(13) was thought to be the oldes kata in okinawan karate, at least that was the kata that was supposedly taught to beginners, however another early kata is the Naihanchi that is also said to have been the first kata a karate student was taught ...
It is Seisan. Jesse says , "Seisan is the one (kata) that you can find in almost every style of karate ...," セーサン = Seisan.
Trick wrote:marvin8 wrote:Trick wrote:is it the sanchin kata in both videos ?(cant see the videos)....As i remember reading the little info therebwas back before the internet(back when i was into karate) Seisan(13) was thought to be the oldes kata in okinawan karate, at least that was the kata that was supposedly taught to beginners, however another early kata is the Naihanchi that is also said to have been the first kata a karate student was taught ...
It is Seisan. Jesse says , "Seisan is the one (kata) that you can find in almost every style of karate ...," セーサン = Seisan.
Ah, then I’m inline whit the information in the video when I mention Seisan as (one of) the oldest Kata in Okinawan Karate. .....
as i can’t see the YouTube I went by your text that mentions the “three war boxing Kata ” which is the Kata sanchin in Okinawan Karate.
Trick wrote:Seisan translated to ‘thirteen’.
So here is some twisted and turning play with history from my mind....There are sources saying Zhang Sanfeng was a native from Fujian. Perhaps Seisan is an very old boxing exercise that young Mr.Zhang learned(in the southern Shaolin temple) which he after enlightening at Wudang became his thirteen postures....
Or since Mr. Zhang became an immortal he might have at some point traveled back to his home province to teach his at the Wudang invented 13 postures exercise which then in Fujian Province came to be known as 13 Boxing form(Seisan)...Maybe he traveled to Okinawa to teach ??........
Then later we have Sokon Matsumura who was the head of the royal guard in Okinawa and a Karate aficionado, he on at least two occasions traveled as part of the Okinawan kings group of attachés to The Chinese capital, this was during the times of Yang Luchans dwellings in the capital....
Yes Aragaki was chosen for the Tode demonstration for the visiting Chinese diplomats to Okinawa. Sokon Matsumura was about forty years older than Aragaki. It’s a little unclear from who Aragaki learned Tode(karate), maybe he was a student of Matsumura. However Matsumura had many famous students, so it was a prestigious task Aragaki was given for such an important event.marvin8 wrote:Trick wrote:Seisan translated to ‘thirteen’.
So here is some twisted and turning play with history from my mind....There are sources saying Zhang Sanfeng was a native from Fujian. Perhaps Seisan is an very old boxing exercise that young Mr.Zhang learned(in the southern Shaolin temple) which he after enlightening at Wudang became his thirteen postures....
Or since Mr. Zhang became an immortal he might have at some point traveled back to his home province to teach his at the Wudang invented 13 postures exercise which then in Fujian Province came to be known as 13 Boxing form(Seisan)...Maybe he traveled to Okinawa to teach ??........
Then later we have Sokon Matsumura who was the head of the royal guard in Okinawa and a Karate aficionado, he on at least two occasions traveled as part of the Okinawan kings group of attachés to The Chinese capital, this was during the times of Yang Luchans dwellings in the capital....
In the OP video, Jesse says in 1867 Arakaki Seishō performed "one of the earliest recorded karate demonstrations in Okinawa ... The kata was Seisan."
My question is backward, but is it really “proved” that the southern(Fujian) Shaolin temple didn’t exists ?. Anyway, very interesting about all the sanzhan variations, both in China (Fujian) and in karate. It would certainly be interesting to know where it came from originally, since all the Fujian styles seem to have it (from cranes to dogs to arahats).
GrahamB wrote:About the OP video: What I found interesting was that all the techniques he's digging up.... have a lot in common with basic Yang style Tai Chi techniques from the first section of the form. Sounds mad, but bear with me.....
Jesse Enkamp wrote:... Therefore, today I thought we could have a look at one of the most interesting – not to mention sound and pratical – concepts of TCMA. Namely, the four principles of attack and defense; known as Fou (Float), Chen (Sink), T’un (Swallow) and T’u ( Spit).
Note that these four concepts are predominant in the southern Chinese traditional martial arts (like White Crane, Mantis etc.) which means they are historically significant for us Karate dudes and dudettes.
So let’s have a quick look to see what the fuss is about, and what the correlation to Karate is:
#1. Fou (to float):
Float.
Fou, “to float”, basically means uprooting an opponent via a sudden release of force, directed upwards. Float is the expansion of energy, which is capable of “bouncing” the opponent away, and is analogous to “Ward Off” (Peng) in Tai Chi. ...
#2. Chen (to sink):
Sink.
... Sink is analogous to “Push Down” (An) in Tai Chi, where it refers to pressing down the opponent’s “bridge” (arms, basically).
#3. T’un (to swallow):
Swallowed!
... In Tai Chi, Swallow is analogous to “Roll Back” (Lu). Adhere to your opponent’s force, allow it to continue on its path, divert it, and direct it into a harmless circuit ending in total mayhem. You win.
#4. T’u (to spit):
... In Tai Chi, Spit is analogous to “Press Forward” (Ji). Most often used when you direct/reflect the “borrowed” force back to the opponent. Every Aikido throw basically ends with Spit. Applies both to joint-locks and throws as well as kicks, punches and other “ballistic” attacks.
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