Fajin training

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Fajin training

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:38 am

Peacedog wrote:The one I have the most experience with involves rebounding force.

Essentially, you absorb the incoming kinetic energy of your opponent onto the ligament/tendon (i.e. fasciae) network in the body. You are forming an arc between the contact point, say hands as an example, and the feet on the ground. If I am doing this statically with a student, they often describe the pressure they are putting on me as combing back at them from my feet. This goes into compression and it is released back into your opponent via a wave of kinetic energy that comes out the body. Using this method you can discharge from pretty much any point of contact (hands, feet, shoulders...).

The base technique can be learned in a weekend, but it takes a really long time to learn to do this at a speed where it is martially effective. FYI, I cannot do this upon demand at speed either. When I'm in practice, I can usually throw 90% of push hands people with very little effort although as a dabbler it may take me a few minutes to lock the other guy up first.

Mostly I've used it as a power training drill with students.

I have, very rarely, had things line up exactly right while sparring and sent people flying with seemingly no effort on my part. The sensation is akin to performing a perfect clean and jerk where the weights don't even seem to be there.

That said, the method seems to be very wearing on the disks in the spinal column and I don't recommend it to a lot of people as something to train more than once a week or so. And never if they are over 50 years of age.

The type of power, or effect rather, that you’re describing is actually called ‘Ti Fang’ (Lift Let go). It was confused with Fajin back around the 1930s.

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Re: Fajin training

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:51 am

Trick wrote:Ah, ou mean, to know one self is to know your opponent...... ??………Or do you meanwhen one borrowing the opponents force one is also borrowing ones own force ? However in your GIF here you borrow your opponent foce, you seem just to be gently guidning him(his force) on a route he didnt intend...do you mean you express fajin in that GIF ?

The solo drill training and partner drill are similar.

- Twist into one direction to the maximum.
- Twist into the opposite direction by borrowing your own body elastic force (in solo drill), or by borrowing opposite's resistance (in partner drill).

The stronger that your opponent's uses his resistance force, the less Fajin that you will need.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:29 pm

At least for my usage of Fajin, it doesn't matter which foot lands first, if any. I can do it forwards, backwards, with one foot in the air, with both feet on the ground, parallel, at an angle, any direction, even with a kick. The power is generated by rapidly sinking my centre-of-gravity and redirecting the power into their bodies, creating a wave. The footwork provides additional structure, but isn't the source of power. I also believe that not all types of Fajin are equal or that they are all practical for the same situations. The Chinese word is very general, hence the different terms: Zhenjin (震劲), Doujin (抖劲), Zhengjin (整劲), Shuaijin (甩劲), amongst others.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:33 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:At least for my usage of Fajin, it doesn't matter which foot lands first, if any. I can do it forwards, backwards, with one foot in the air, with both feet on the ground, parallel, at an angle, any direction, even with a kick. The power is generated by rapidly sinking my centre-of-gravity and redirecting the power into their bodies, creating a wave. The footwork provides additional structure, but isn't the source of power. I also believe that not all types of Fajin are equal or that they are all practical for the same situations. The Chinese word is very general, hence the different terms: Zhenjin (震劲), Doujin (抖劲), Zhengjin (整劲), Shuaijin (甩劲), amongst others.


Good post
Also illustrates the way the Chinese think about expressions of power.
It’s very nuanced, with some styles, systems, or methods noted for or specializing in different types of “Jin”
There is even a “fa Qi” that’s some might be familiar with.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:00 pm

Thank you. I totally agree that different styles are famous for their particular styles of power generation. That's one of the most important things that we should make sure to learn and pass on to future generations.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:53 pm

johnwang wrote:[

The stronger that your opponent's uses his resistance force, the less Fajin that you will need.

Ok, so if ones training focus solely on dealing with fully committed attacks one do not need spend time on Fajin solo exercises. Then perhaps exercises such as the Yang Taiji form is the best option ?
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Re: Fajin training

Postby dspyrido on Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:19 pm

Trick wrote:
johnwang wrote:[

The stronger that your opponent's uses his resistance force, the less Fajin that you will need.

Ok, so if ones training focus solely on dealing with fully committed attacks one do not need spend time on Fajin solo exercises. Then perhaps exercises such as the Yang Taiji form is the best option ?


Situational training. Practising with an attentive mind a slow forms without an opponent means getting good at handling no opponent and moving around unencumbered.

Training against a live opponent and learning to handle the pressure is a much better place to prepare for a live opponent.

As for fajin - it can mean many things but i just view it as "with power". Power that comes from directed repetition.

As my xylh sifu's used to say "1000/1000".

Kick a tree using a shin kick 1000 times with the left leg and 1000 right leg and you'll get fajin in kicking power.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby johnwang on Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:13 pm

dspyrido wrote:As for fajin - it can mean many things...

- A striker may think that Fajin is to generate maximum force into a punch, kick, or push.
- A wrestler may think that Fajin is to generate maximum force to pull your opponent in. If your opponent already moves in toward you, you don't need maximum pulling.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby johnwang on Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:38 pm

TKD used sine wave power generation method.

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Re: Fajin training

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:26 pm

What he says that he is doing and what he actually does are different. This is not what I was talking about. There are some areas of overlap, but I feel like it would be really hard to use that type of power in a real fight with fluid footwork. It looks too tense and there is too much wasted movement. Some of the theories that he talks about align with what I was taught, but his actual movement doesn't.

I'm so confused though.. I would think that someone that grew up in Taiwan and has travelled to the mainland and done martial arts from a young age must have met a Master that could properly Fajin with a punch. There's many ways to do it. Yet you have to look for it in Taekwondo of all places... Even one of those Shuaijiao clips that YOU posted was a good example of Fajin...
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Re: Fajin training

Postby johnwang on Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:00 pm

I just heard the term "sine wave" today in another forum. I Google it and find that clip. It seems to me that TKD tries to develop their own power generation theory.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby Trick on Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:38 am

dspyrido wrote:
Trick wrote:
johnwang wrote:[

The stronger that your opponent's uses his resistance force, the less Fajin that you will need.

Ok, so if ones training focus solely on dealing with fully committed attacks one do not need spend time on Fajin solo exercises. Then perhaps exercises such as the Yang Taiji form is the best option ?


Situational training. Practising with an attentive mind a slow forms without an opponent means getting good at handling no opponent and moving around unencumbered.

Training against a live opponent and learning to handle the pressure is a much better place to prepare for a live opponent.

As for fajin - it can mean many things but i just view it as "with power". Power that comes from directed repetition.

As my xylh sifu's used to say "1000/1000".

Kick a tree using a shin kick 1000 times with the left leg and 1000 right leg and you'll get fajin in kicking power.
Moving unencumbered radiates confidence, not easily to end up in a scuffle, Taiji moves are far from being just an even phased shuffle....
Last edited by Trick on Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby johnwang on Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:41 pm

Just find more TKD sine wave clips. What do you think?



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Re: Fajin training

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:30 pm

It's like he's partially right, but in between Fajin he is dancing around, WTF. He doesn't look well-rooted and isn't transferring the power from the ground. I don't think it's very practical, the way that he does it. He's dancing on the correct path, but he needs to get serious and powerwalk it instead. :P

The real test for him would be to hit an object or a person and see if he has really genrated a wave.
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Re: Fajin training

Postby johnwang on Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:53 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:isn't transferring the power from the ground.

Agree! I don't see the clear path of power transfer from:

- bottom -> up
- back -> front

In those clips, the back leg function is not noticeable. This is the missing part. Can one skip the back leg power transfer training? I don't think it's OK.

Image
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