Open Hand Sparring: Bagua vs Wing Chun vs MMA — Ramsey Dewey

[marvin8]

Ramsey Dewey
Published on Jul 19, 2019

Shanghai based MMA coach Ramsey Dewey, Bagua Zhang, Xinyi, and taijiquan practitioner Linji, and Nils (Wing Chun, German Jujitsu, FMA) do some experimental sparring using open hand strikes including palm strikes, knife hands, ridge hands, back hands, and slaps as well as grappling.

We didn’t have an agenda behind this sparring, we were just genuinely curious how it would play out, and as a result we learned a few interesting things about traditional martial arts and Chinese kungfu:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nF0CsxGo0E

[aamc]

Err, well that was mediocre.

[Climb-up]

I like it!
The Bagua guy is sparring with his coach, who is presumably a better fighter all around, and not just holding his own but actually making Dewey change his approach and stance and start thinking about things differently.
Obviously he didn’t completely dominate,and he wasn’t able to sneak around behind Dewey, but that seems like it’s to be expected if your fighting with someone as good, or better, than you.

I also liked the discussion of the light touch on the arm, so as not to generate resistance but to be able to track and listen, and how the first two guys (who originally get they had no power with open hands) were surprised that Lin Ji’s palm strikes actually hurt!

That palm strike throw at the end was pretty sweet too.

[dspyrido]

They are doing it wrong



Ask any experienced bouncer the power of a slap and listen to their stories.

Or watch someone who knows how to palm strike:



Also wc is not good for these sorts of strikes as it lacks the body weight support. Bagua is much better ... when it's done right.

[Bhassler]

More and more I think Ramsey has sold out to help promote the "superiority" of the "cultural treasures" of China's mass market IMA....

[Climb-up]

Or watch someone who knows how to palm strike:

Yeah, thought it was strange that they didn’t mention Bas Rutten.

Also wc is not good for these sorts of strikes as it lacks the body weight support. Bagua is much better ... when it's done right.

Thats the point that the Bagua guy was making at the end of the video right?

[Trick]

Wasn’t Bas Rutten into shoot fighting in Japan. Palm strikes(slap?) is the main way to strike in Shoot fighting ? Probably borrowed it from Sumo wrestling ?

[Climb-up]

Wasn’t Bas Rutten into shoot fighting in Japan. Palm strikes(slap?) is the main way to strike in Shoot fighting ? Probably borrowed it from Sumo wrestling ?

He fought in Pancrase.
In pancrase they had very few rules, like other mma orgs, but they also fought very often so they had a few rules that would minimize damage that would keep a fighter out for a long time. AFAIK it had nothing to do with Sumo.

Most fighters in Pancrase couldn’t do really strong open hand strikes, and were using slaps. Bad Rutten was the first to figure out how to pull his fingers all the way back and strike with the heel of the palm in the same way as a fist; even doing things like traditional boxing hooks with his palm.
This was coupled with his Kyokushin-inspired stance where he stood square to his opponent, giving him knockout power with both his right and left hands (as opposed to just his rear hand, as in a traditional boxing stance).

[marvin8]

I like it!
The Bagua guy is sparring with his coach, who is presumably a better fighter all around, and not just holding his own but actually making Dewey change his approach and stance and start thinking about things differently.
Obviously he didn’t completely dominate,and he wasn’t able to sneak around behind Dewey, but that seems like it’s to be expected if your fighting with someone as good, or better, than you.

I also liked the discussion of the light touch on the arm, so as not to generate resistance but to be able to track and listen, and how the first two guys (who originally get they had no power with open hands) were surprised that Lin Ji’s palm strikes actually hurt!

That palm strike throw at the end was pretty sweet too.

Lomachenko uses some of the same tactics (a testament to their effectiveness), although open palm striking is against boxing's rules:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl3nVafPJoY

Ramsey was sparring because they were "genuinely curious how it would play out." And, Lin explained and seem to use the concepts/tactics well. However, here is a more competitive Bagua vs MMA match:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGpp3Z5Qd20

Wasn’t Bas Rutten into shoot fighting in Japan. Palm strikes(slap?) is the main way to strike in Shoot fighting ? Probably borrowed it from Sumo wrestling ?

Bas Rutten was into Pankrase where closed fist hitting was against the rules. Bas says when hitting with fists, the fist should be relaxed prior to impact. That is when fists are most vulnerable:

fightTIPS
Dec 15, 2015


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm0SyEqc7ns

[Climb-up]

Ramsey was sparring because they were "genuinely curious how it would play out." And, Lin explained and seem to use the concepts/tactics well. However, here is a more competitive Bagua vs MMA match:

Yeah I’ve seen that one before, and others like it. It’s what I would expect in most situations.
That’s precisely why I liked the video in the OP, because Linji is a Bagua fighter who is not just “testing” his Bagua, but learning mma to have a fighting context to be able to use his Bagua effectively. Not that that’s the only way to learn to fight with Bagua, but it seems like a good idea.

I don’t really follow MMA anymore, but I did for many years, and I noticed that continually things that were “impossible” in a real fight started becoming normal when people who had that skill set also learned more about the wider mma context. I was so happy when Lyoto Machida started doing all the traditional techniques and strategies that had previously been dismissed.
Not that Bagua will probably ever be standard in mma! Lol, but this seems great.
I have no aspirations to be a “fighter” per se (and I’m like, almost 40 so ...little late to start!), but if the world ever goes back to normal I want to take some mma classes to have a better context of fighting to understand the Bagua that in learning.

[Climb-up]

Lomachenko uses some of the same tactics (a testament to their effectiveness), although open palm striking is against boxing's rules:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl3nVafPJoY

Awesom, thanks for that!

[marvin8]

Not that Bagua will probably ever be standard in mma! Lol, but this seems great.

Well, all the bagua concepts that Lin Ji mentioned in the OP video are found in MMA, combat sports, etc.

[dspyrido]

Thats the point that the Bagua guy was making at the end of the video right?

He wasn't very good at bagua to be representative of it. Even in his form he was stiff and awkward.

That said bagua would also be an awkward one to use in these rules. It's not built on stand up slapping opponents but on mixing kicks, throws, sweeps and locks into it. The bagua guys I've met that could apply it know how to wrestle. If they get crowded at the arms they know how to drop down and grab the legs.

[Trip]

..Bad Rutten was the first to figure out how to pull his fingers all the way back and strike with the heel of the palm in the same way as a fist;...

I think this is just a phrasing issue.

Bas was a bad man in his day, who was more than a handful to deal with, and deserves fight respect!
But the First to strike with the heel of the palm?!
That's a bit of a stretch.

There's even slang names for it.
Bitch Slap, Hand of god,
There was this old guy who use to teach the locals in Los Angeles how to break a coconut with a single Palm heel strike.
for awhile there was a lot of inner city kids running around trying to break your "Coconut."

It's more like what Dspyrido says here.

Ask any experienced bouncer the power of a slap and listen to their stories.

If you dig you'd find old Bouncer stories & Documentaries on the web.
They mostly used to break faces (Cheek bones, etc.), quick KO's without breaking their fist on a hard head.

Also, if you take Traditional Yang Taiji (Tung, Yang, Fu, etc.)
It's standard to use the Palm heel in striking.
It's a primary weapon in Yang Taiji

One obvious example of a Palm Heel strike in Yang style is in the Brush Knee application.

Here's a picture of Tung Huling palm in Single Whip. There's other Taiji pics but this Palm pic was easy to find quickly.

[Climb-up]

..Bad Rutten was the first to figure out how to pull his fingers all the way back and strike with the heel of the palm in the same way as a fist;...

I think this is just a phrasing issue.

Bas was a bad man in his day, who was more than a handful to deal with, and deserves fight respect!
But the First to strike with the heel of the palm?!
That's a bit of a stretch.

Lol, apologies for not being clear (I had assumed it was based on the context).
Obviously was not the “first person” to do a palm heel strike!!!!
What I meant was that he was the first ....in Pancrase, to successfully use the palm strike as a serious, powerful, knockout strike.
I learned palm strikes in karate before mma existed, and of course am doing Bagua now ...which certainly knows about effective palm strikes.
Sorry again for the lack of clarity, thank you for pointing it out.