Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:21 am

Good.You find it interesting. Now try it. Better yet, children watch the internet too. What would you say if someone told your child that drinking bleach prevented covid? And, maybe you are wise enough to recommend against it, there are many gullible people who might.

What do you think about the doctor's treatment of women with demonic sexual insemination? How about the use of alien dna? I'd say that she's automatically unreliable. If she'll bullshit about that, she'll bullshit about covid. Again, not based on the possession of any advanced degree.

Personally, I don't do or believe anything because someone in a white coat said something on the internet. Ymmv. Go for it. Afa covid, though, we've passed 150 [thousand] dead human beings. Right now, imo, better safe than sorry --for the sake of the ill and elderly.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:57 am

Afa covid, though, we've passed 150 dead human beings. Right now, imo, better safe than sorry --for the sake of the ill and elderly.


The law allows for abortions, what about those who have yet to be born.
For the sake of them, should something be done.

Quoting numbers of dead people.
Is it supposed to mean something.

Whether one agree with abortions or not do you know how many have been performed last year and this year.

Could be wrong,
Doesn’t seem like you really care about the death of Human beings as mentioned , Not all of them.

Do you?
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:28 am

what about


Abortion. Right.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby LaoDan on Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:23 pm

So...if one cannot defend the (potentially harmful) nonsense posted from certain questionable sources (even if one finds it “interesting” or “different” from what others have to say), switch instead to defending their “right” to post the information, and argue against the “right” of the format to remove the posts? Is that what this has become? Why? Is this related to Trump’s tantrum about having his tweets have a fact check disclaimer added to his posts?
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:43 pm

The Ohio Board of Pharmacy has reversed a rule that prohibited the sale and dispensing of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine in the state after Gov. Mike DeWine (R) asked for the reversal.

“I agree with the statement from Dr. Steven Hahn, Commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration, that the decision about prescribing hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19 should be between a doctor and a patient,” DeWine said in a statement. “Therefore, I am asking the Ohio Board of Pharmacy to halt their new rule prohibiting the selling or dispensing of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine for the treatment or prevention of COVID-19.


If it was dangerous to prescribe it, assuming the prohibition was based it being so, as many here seem to feel it is
based on what some call "questionable nonsense "


Not being a doctor I might agree with the premise for its usage , not qualified to support it...

is it now safe?



yesterday it was not

Beginning Thursday, hydroxychloroquine can no longer be used to treat coronavirus in Ohio. Pharmacies, clinics and other medical institutions will be prohibited from dispensing or selling the drug to treat COVID-19, according to new regulations issued by the State of Ohio Board of Pharmacy.


did something change ?
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Trick on Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:43 pm

Ok,an of topic question come to my mind reading here about social media censorship in the cyberspace, ....Who owns the internet ? Who created it ? I read that in the early 80s there were about 20 computers connected, so back then it must have “belonged” to someone/an organization/corporation/government ?
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:43 pm

US DARPA created it. Used to use the early forms of internet comms in the 80s.

Not sure we can say there is any owner.

For censorship, also not sure.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Trick on Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:55 pm

Here’s what your (covid19?)flu-shot will contain. All au naturell with , egg, pork and/or beef, aluminum, and a small dose mercury....+ the virus of course......so keep that bleach in the canister, the shot will soon be here....https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... 7#benefits
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Trick on Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:01 pm

everything wrote:US DARPA created it. Used to use the early forms of internet comms in the 80s.

Not sure we can say there is any owner.

For censorship, also not sure.

Actually Surprised that no one owns it, one could make quite a buck.....maybe the strategy is if it’s still in the hands of DARPA is global surveillance, make it free and everyone want it....?
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:28 am

windwalker wrote:
If it was dangerous to prescribe it, assuming the prohibition was based it being so, as many here seem to feel it is
based on what some call "questionable nonsense "

Not being a doctor I might agree with the premise for its usage , not qualified to support it...

is it now safe?

yesterday it was not


Windwalker, since you were a military medic, it perplexes me that you apparently don't understand where the problem lies.
HCQ is a recognized, established and fairly effective drug for, chiefly, the treatment of malaria. But also sometimes for rheumatoid arthritis, lupus and porphyria. What all these diseases have in common is that they can, each in their own way, cause severe chronic pain and/or suffering and not infrequently death. Even porphyria cutanea tarda, which not only affects the skin but not uncommonly damages or destroys the liver, too. So in all these cases, prescribing and administering the drug HCQ involves weighing up the certain or possible benefits against the proven risks. Just in the same way that chemotherapy for cancer basically involves poisoning the patient in a targeted and controlled way in the hope - often justified - that the patient will, with the necessary support, come through the bouts of poisoning and in the process be freed of cancer, bringing a long-term benefit. But you don't give people chemotherapy as a cure for the huge majority of ailments, because any possible benefit then, even if it might exist, doesn't outweigh the side-effects.

Sure, the side-effects/dangers of HCQ are far less than chemotherapy. But they are significant, and here they are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine#Adverse_effects

As said, you have to weigh up the benefits of using the drug to treat malaria or, say, lupus against the possible harm it might do.

If all recent substantiated, methodologically sound, peer-reviewed studies clearly indicate that HCQ brings no curative benefits for people suffering from Covid-19, then that is a very good reason for not prescribing this drug for that purpose. Until any future point in time when further substantiatad studies might indicate that HCQ is helpful after all. Indeed, the indicated lack of efficacy to date is a good reason for clearly recommending against its use for this specific purpose. Because it has no proven benefits (i.e. for Covid-19 it doesn't work) and still has all the possible harmful side-effects. Moreover, if people resort to this drug when it won't help them, especially in the case of self medication, it may well stop them seeking other more effective treatments. Quite possibly until it's too late.

Note: "methodologically sound, peer-reviewed studies" should by contrasted here with anecodatal evidence by certain doctors who by evidence of their own past and recent statements and actions can be identified as being politically driven and/or bullshitters and/or plain nuts. Or with the recommendations of politicians who tend to ignore medical scientific evidence and prefer to be guided by their 'gut feeling'. ;)

So to sum up, HCQ is indeed to some extent "dangerous to prescribe", it is not "safe", but as a medicine for malaria, lupus and some other serious diseases the inherent dangers can be outweighed by the benefits the drug can bring. However, Covid-19 is not one of these indicated diseases.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:30 am

@ Windwalker
Thanks for your relatively clear statement about where you stand on freedom of speech with regard to posting/maintaining material on the Internet - based on the fictional example of "You and your children should drink bleach." I disagree with you about where the line should be drawn, but you provided the clarity I requested. In that sense, appreciated.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Steve James on Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:58 am

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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:03 am

@ Giles

acupuncture, are there any recent scientific peer reviewed studies by medical doctors that support acupuncture as a treatment.

For HQ ,The studies you point out not censored, are addressed in their censored white paper which also mentioned ongoing other studies they say Will be published in a couple of months. . It also talked about why they feel those studies were not valid and how they failed.

Not being a doctor, I am wondering why if they banned it for the use on the virus, why was the ban lifted for use on the virus.

What has changed ?

Not a supporter or detractor only pointing out the empirical findings by some doctors and their patients that found benefit from using it off use” as another therapeutic .

While we may disagree, thanks for not being a mind reader, trying to assign motives or labels that have nothing to do with the conversation.

Regards
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:06 am

windwalker wrote:@ Giles,

reviewed by their medical authorities

The Dutch government on Wednesday advised the public not to wear masks to slow the spread of coronavirus, cautioning their effectiveness remains unproven.

The Minister for Medical Care Tamara van Ark made the decision after a review by the country’s National Institute for Health (RIVM).


Because from a medical perspective there is no proven effectiveness of masks, the Cabinet has decided that there will be no national obligation for wearing non-medical masks” Van Ark said.

RIVM chief Jaap van Dissel cited studies that show masks help slow the spread of disease but remained unconvinced they will do anything to counter coronavirus outbreak in the Netherlands.


Is it correct


I checked this out because it interested me personally. I live in Germany, but I lived in the Netherlands for a few years and speak Dutch, also do a lot of translation work for Dutch clients, so I could read a few reliable newspaper articles to find out more.
The report you quote is skewed in one small but very significant detail. It is false that the Dutch government has “advised the people not to wear masks”, a formulation in the report that distorts the actual situation. Instead, they declined to issue a clear recommendation that people should wear masks. The important difference should be clear.

According to my quick research, the current Dutch government and its advisory panel of scientists have concluded that currently "there is no reason for an overriding obligation based on scientific knowledge." Nonetheless, the Dutch government has already made the wearing of face masks compulsory on public transport. It seems that relates also to political/ideological attitudes with the predominantly “conservative-liberal” cabinet. The prime minister, Mark Rutte, has previously said – I paraphrase slightly – that the Dutch are a ‘down-to-earth people’ and that face masks should ultimately be a matter of personal choice. Hence, as it seems to me, on the basis of such thinking the government is unwilling to make face masks mandatory in more environments without more clear evidence of their effectiveness. They do not believe that face masks are harmful; they feel insufficiently sure that they are useful.

However, the great majority of other European governments are generally taking the attitude: it still isn’t certain just how effective they are in practice, and this is also very hard to prove under realistic conditions, but despite this there are enough - and increasing - indications that they have at least some effectiveness, if not indeed significant effectiveness, so the (potential) benefits outweigh the objections. Germany, my home, is comparatively ‘liberal’ in this respect and there is no obligation to wear masks when outside on the street as long as you’re not standing in a tight crowd. But when you enter public transport or enclosed public spaces, then you are required to put one on.
And a survey showed last week that a majority of the Dutch support a face mask obligation in public indoor areas.

A leading Dutch field epidemiologist and microbiologist said in response to the latest government decision: "The exact effectiveness is difficult to measure, but a mouth mask always filters at least a fraction of the drops on both sides. Whether this fraction is 5 or 50 percent depends on the context. But even if it is just 5 percent, this is still 5 percent. Let's apply the precautionary principle.”
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Giles on Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:20 am

Just quickly. Basic mutual human respect remains a good thing, no matter how much we may disagree or indeed jump on each other's arguments. So yes.

windwalker wrote:@ Giles

acupuncture, are there any recent scientific peer reviewed studies by medical doctors that support acupuncture as a treatment.


I don't know. I am not an acupuncturist, but speaking as a tai chi practitioner and teacher of 25 years and a naturopath working with craniosacral therapy, I would never dream of recommending or relying on acupuncture (or indeed craniosacral therapy) as a curative or (main) prophylaxis for Covid-19. If I were to meet an acupuncturist or a craniosacral guy who said anything along the lines of: "Don't social distance, don't wear a mask in the bus or train, don't wash your hands, don't go to hospital if you develop serious symptoms, don't get vaccinated against flu (or Covid-19, if we get an effective vaccine later on) because that is dangerous and/or totally ineffective etc. - but maybe be treated by me instead" then I would regard him as a harmful individual who should not be allowed to retain his official naturopath status.

Not a supporter or detractor only pointing out the empirical findings by some doctors and their patients that found benefit from using it off use” as another therapeutic.


The sticking point there is "empirical". On the basis of other statements by said doctors, as previously described, I have my doubts about whether their findings are honestly empirical at all. This is exactly what would be established by stringent peer review of their findings and recording methods. Until such a point -- and also considering that the "sensory input" and "practical experience" of one of the leading lights of this doctor group includes working with, or against, alien DNA and evil spirits -- then I'm afraid I have precious little confidence in their empiricism as a measure of sound scientific approach.
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