Yin Bagua stepping:

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Yin Bagua stepping:

Postby Tom on Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:39 pm

A brief sidestep to the thread . . . Ed, feel free to continue by PM if you want.

edededed wrote:.

- Incidentally - Liu Bin's relation to Li Baohua's bagua line - is this common knowledge now? (I was familiar, but I thought it was not really known in general.)


I researched it after Li Baohua visited with me during his first US visit in 2012. Over the years, I've asked Li directly about differences in the Ma Gui baguazhang he teaches and what was passed down from Ma Gui to Wang Peisheng (as taught today by the Yin Cheng Gong Fa group). With respect specifically to the circle-walking practice and tang ni bu, I noted the resemblance to Liu Bin's lines in the stepping (I've worked with two different lines of teaching coming down from Liu Bin), but LBH insisted that it came directly from Ma Gui, even though one of his grandteachers, Li Shao'an, had studied in the Liu Bin and Liang Zhenpu schools. LBH said that, if anything, Liu Bin's stepping would have come from Li Shao'an sharing Ma Gui's stepping method. Now it is true that Liu Wanchuan was very clear with Yu Zhiming, LBH's teacher, what elements of his baguazhang--like the dashou technique--came directly from Ma Gui. According to LBH, Liu Wanchuan characterized the stepping of Ma Gui baguazhang as "low basin, small steps" when walking the circle. Training with LBH in person or observing video footage, I would not characterize his stepping as "small" steps. It seems like fairly straight-forward tangnibu, not the sliding kind of the late Sun Zhijun (which you mentioned before), but more like the stepping of the two lines from the Liu Bin school I am familiar with.
Needless to say, this is just my opinion. Please feel free to disregard it. ;D
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Re: Yin Bagua stepping:

Postby zrm on Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:38 pm

Tom wrote:My attempted historical point about tangnibu is that it very likely was not something that baguazhang's founder Dong Haichuan taught. It may well have developed with Cheng Tinghua based on his experience with shuai jiao (a nod to John Wang's post here), or as a result of Cheng cross-training with Hebei xingyi practitioners, or both. I just wanted to note that Sun Lutang, a Hebei xingyi practitioner of note who trained baguazhang with Cheng in the early 1890s (well into Cheng's teaching career), did not practice or teach tangnibu.


All of this sounds reasonable to me.

Tom wrote:With respect to tangnibu as a practical training method, without exception every well-known baguazhang master I've looked at uses ziranbu when moving at combat-realistic speed demonstrating applications--including Yang Hai. I've only seen variations of tangnibu used at speed for very specific leg applications--and it's not clear what solo training in tangnibu contributes to the effectiveness of such applications.


My Cheng teacher was clear that tangnibu is a foundation exercise but you use ziranbu quick movement and application. But as Hai Yang says in his video, ziranbu in Cheng style is just a very subtle form of tangibu. In my experience the benefit is similar to that in Xing Yi. It teaches you to sink weight down and then forward (like when you need to shift a heavy object) instead of up and over (like when you push on a fridge and it starts to tip over instead of shifts). The sliding part is useful for fajin.

It's very hard to get right. It's one of those skills that requires extensive dedicated practice before you see much benefit (like standing meditation, iron palm etc). Doing extended steps in a circle with proper balance is much harder than it is in Xing Yi, which has something similar but in a straight line.
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Re: Yin Bagua stepping:

Postby edededed on Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:34 pm

Thanks Tom. My experience with tangnibu is like zrm, it being an exercise to develop foundational attributes. It changes one's ziranbu, which is then used for applications.

Regarding Ma Gui, I will PM you :)

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Re: Yin Bagua stepping:

Postby Tom on Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:20 pm

zrm wrote:It's very hard to get right. It's one of those skills that requires extensive dedicated practice before you see much benefit (like standing meditation, iron palm etc). Doing extended steps in a circle with proper balance is much harder than it is in Xing Yi, which has something similar but in a straight line.


This makes sense. Thanks for sharing your own and your teacher's perspective, zrm.
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Re: Yin Bagua stepping:

Postby Yeung on Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:32 pm

johnwang wrote:
Tom wrote:Whether tangnibu came from Cheng Tinghua's shuai jiao background, ...

If you try to use your shin bone to run into your opponent's inside leg, or outside leg, you will get tangnibu.


The idea is similar to the strategy of Wing Chun wooden dummy technique, step to the blind side and shovel into the dummy something like the following photo:

Image

I do not see any relevancy of teaching people walking naturally, just try to walk around a tree quickly and one will work out the correct technique very quickly.
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Re: Yin Bagua stepping:

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:50 pm

johnwang wrote:
Tom wrote:Whether tangnibu came from Cheng Tinghua's shuai jiao background, ...

If you try to use your shin bone to run into your opponent's inside leg, or outside leg, you will get tangnibu.

Yeah, that is another side effect of how the foot is held level as it steps around. It strengthens the whole front of the shins.

In the Dragon palm the attacks are directly going towards the opponent, or chest forward facing. So it uses a different stepping method when Strike drilling. Called 7 star stepping. And the application of the step is to smash into and through the opponent’s leg, as you step your foot right next to their foot, but slightly past their heel with a little bai or kou to hold their foot in place. It can cause just pain to them but also hyper extend the knee and cause more serious damage.

It’s brutal, but gives meaning to “the legs are seven (70%), while the arms are three (30%).”

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Re: Yin Bagua stepping:

Postby dacheng on Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:34 am

I'm not much into bagua (although I'm playing just a little bit), especially not Yin style, but will use this opportunity to talk just a bit about some situation related to bagua stepping. So, it was in 2002 when I and one of my yiquan students visited Yin style bagua master Zhu Baozhen, when that student of mine asked if master Zhu could demonstrate the famous bagua stepping. He expected that master Zhu would start walking in circles, but instead master Zhu came closer to him, connected arms with him like in tui shou, and made some very fast and very short steps, mainly moving a bit sideway and entering with a hit, repeating this a few times, and then saying: ”这个就是八卦掌的步法“。
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Re: Yin Bagua stepping:

Postby Yeung on Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:04 am

歌诀六
穿时指掌贴肘行,Chuan Shi Zhi Zhang Tie Zhou Xing,
后肩改做前肩承。Hou Jian Gai Zuo Qian Jian Cheng.
莫要距离莫犹豫,Mo Yao Ju Li Mo You Yu,
步入裆兮是准绳。Bu Ru Dang Xi Shi Zhun Sheng.
Song 6
In piercing out, the palms should be straight, moving closely alongside the elbow,
Rear shoulder attacks and front shoulder succeeds.
Do not leave space and don’t hesitate,
Walk forward between the opponent’s legs.
(The Essentials of Ba Gua Zhang by Gao Ji Wu and Tom Bisio)
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Re: Yin Bagua stepping:

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:04 am

dacheng wrote:I'm not much into bagua (although I'm playing just a little bit), especially not Yin style, but will use this opportunity to talk just a bit about some situation related to bagua stepping. So, it was in 2002 when I and one of my yiquan students visited Yin style bagua master Zhu Baozhen, when that student of mine asked if master Zhu could demonstrate the famous bagua stepping. He expected that master Zhu would start walking in circles, but instead master Zhu came closer to him, connected arms with him like in tui shou, and made some very fast and very short steps, mainly moving a bit sideway and entering with a hit, repeating this a few times, and then saying: ”这个就是八卦掌的步法“。

Sounds like “Step straight then diagonal; or step diagonal then straight (sideways).”

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Re: Yin Bagua stepping:

Postby johnwang on Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:52 pm

Yeung wrote:步入裆兮是准绳。Bu Ru Dang Xi Shi Zhun Sheng.

Walk forward between the opponent’s legs.

When your leg is between your opponent's legs, you can control both of his legs.

Image
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Re: Yin Bagua stepping:

Postby Yeung on Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:47 am

There is the saying in Xingyi:

Step into the middle door even immortal finds it difficult to defend.

But this is not so easy to step into the opponent's middle door or between his or her leg from a open position. The strategy of Baguaquan is to go to the blindside before stepping into the middle door. The single changing hand technique is a good technique to move into the middle but the opponent can still attack with the other arm or grab both arms. This is where pushing hands and wrestling techniques can be of some advantage.
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Re: Yin Bagua stepping:

Postby johnwang on Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:32 pm

Yeung wrote:The single changing hand technique is a good technique to move into the middle but the opponent can still attack with the other arm or grab both arms.

This is why one will need entering strategy. How to guide your opponent's arms away from your entering path so his arms won't give you any trouble during your entering. This is not part of the Bagua stepping training.
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Re: Yin Bagua stepping:

Postby Yeung on Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:34 am

Yin wading basically is protecting the testes, and finger thrusting when possible. So it is difficult to do a front entry, and wade around a center trains practitioner to switch from side to side. The Bagua strategy is to go to the blind side and attack from the rear, etc. The Bagua two person set is difficult as both persons are moving all the times and that forces practitioners into some frontal wrestling or pushing hand techniques as well.
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