nuclear fusion in France

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Re: nuclear fusion in France

Postby Giles on Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:41 am

@ Peacedog

Thanks for the considered response. You present both arguments and claims (i.e. not the same ;)) that I find very interesting and I'll try to take some more time in the next few days to do some more reading in this area. (If no real work comes up - very slack at the moment). Chernobyl was a different story to Fukushima as regards contamination and resulting illness/deaths, as you certainly know. Although what you say about the latest designs sounds very good, the potentials for unforseen failures, sheer operational incompetence and even sabotage surely remain, no matter how good things are in theory. And if the shit does hit the fan again with nuclear, then the consequences can be far more dramatic than for 'normal' factories, installations, plants etc.
Nonetheless and as said, interesting stuff from you. And I'm not a knee-jerk 'all nuclear is evil' guy. So maybe back again soon on this one. :)
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Re: nuclear fusion in France

Postby everything on Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:55 am

any insights into why the project doesn't seem to have gone well or fell far behind and over budget?
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Re: nuclear fusion in France

Postby Peacedog on Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:02 am

Long story is it is an international coalition arrangement run by scientists not engineers.

Scientists are about theory. Engineers build stuff. Until you get to building and refining a design, you are just fucking around. And since scientists are, generally, not concerned with a working product they tend to fuck around a lot. They get paid either way.

Popular culture way over values the intellectual aspect and denigrates the practical. It's juvenile and idiotic, but there you have it.

ITER was initiated in 1988, but didn't start construction on the reactor proper until 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER
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Re: nuclear fusion in France

Postby Steve James on Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:15 am

In popular culture, the architects and engineers are more like scientists and theoreticians than workers. As per your argument, engineers know nothing about construction. Just as the guy making the forms for the cement or building the foundation.

You're right that the ordinary worker is the one who has to figure out how to actually build something with their hands. Engineers will say that the architects only dream things up, like a geodesic dome. I worked in construction, and that's what the working man thinks. The working man, however, is not the one who dreams up the idea for a building, or say whether a nuclear reactor, let alone a fusion reactor, will work or not.

Hey, if we didn't subsidize the oil companies, that'd free up a lot more funds than anything else. Thing is, there are still lots of people living below the poverty line without health care. It's a matter of priorities. And, I doubt that anyone is planning to give free energy to anyone anyway. But, if it's coming, where do I invest? Hmm, probably in science education, I'd say.
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Re: nuclear fusion in France

Postby everything on Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:06 pm

I think that makes sense in my experience (scientist father, engineer for nuclear plants FIL, lots of scientist parents of friends, and friends who became scientists or engineers, working mainly with analysts/data scientists and engineers). You definitely want engineers doing the engineering/building and scientists creating the new theories and testing theories. Yup, the working man cannot come up with the ideas or theories or experiments for fusion. But very large scale engineer projects with heavy government involvement from many countries? --- welllll, SpaceX seems to be accomplishing so much as a smaller private entity, let's just say.
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Re: nuclear fusion in France

Postby Steve James on Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:05 pm

Yes, buut SpaceX is also government funded because it wins contracts. That's okay by me, though. I would rather my tax dollars went to projects like those.

Afa Mars, though, I say bah humbug. There's no concept of even preserving the Earth, let alone making one square mile of Mars habitable. Oh, it's a grand human endeavor, and it'd be nice to know that there were human colonists there. But, I say it'd be better to learn how to survive in a big spacecraft for generations. Battlestar Galactica comes to mind. Maybe fusion power will make that possible. Otherwise, so far, there are no other habitable places for humans in the known universe. One hostile environment is just as good as another. Solve artificial gravity, and we'll be off.
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Re: nuclear fusion in France

Postby everything on Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:31 pm

I say humbug as well. It's weird how it's driven by somebody's eccentricities, but there are some interesting sales pitch points including 38% of Earth gravity and about a 24 hour day:

WHY MARS?
At an average distance of 140 million miles, Mars is one of Earth's closest habitable neighbors. Mars is about half again as far from the Sun as Earth is, so it still has decent sunlight. It is a little cold, but we can warm it up. Its atmosphere is primarily CO2 with some nitrogen and argon and a few other trace elements, which means that we can grow plants on Mars just by compressing the atmosphere. Gravity on Mars is about 38% of that of Earth, so you would be able to lift heavy things and bound around. Furthermore, the day is remarkably close to that of Earth.
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Re: nuclear fusion in France

Postby Steve James on Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:13 pm

I don't doubt that it would be possible to inhabit Mars. If all the raw materials to produce whatever is needed, and get rid of waste, then it's definitely possible. We could send robots to build the habitat. Terraforming Mars, otoh, or transforming the Planet to make it habitable --to the extent necessary to support ... a million people? Well, which million is another question.

To me, the year that it takes to get humans to Mars is possible already. I say, build an environment in which humans can live long term in space. Then we can go anywhere. Forever. :) Until then, we could learn a lot by setting up a moon colony. It's only a three day trip, after all.
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Re: nuclear fusion in France

Postby everything on Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:11 pm

that we can contemplate it somewhat seriously is a little mind blowing.

meanwhile it'd be nice to get some kind of handle on covid.
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Re: nuclear fusion in France

Postby Trick on Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:55 pm

The though of mars colonization is exiting. If I was an young guy when that is actually happening I would like to try become an Martian.
It might be a one way travel for those who settle there, the earth gravity might be too heavy for any holiday goers, already second generation Martian will be so acclimatized going back to visit and stay on earth might be impossible...perhaps will be possible if wearing an exosuit, probably nuclear power charged, to hold up that long spindly Martian body so to not crumble at the earth gravitation.
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Re: nuclear fusion in France

Postby Steve James on Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:42 am

If you don't like wearing masks or being quarantined, you won't enjoy space travel or living on another planet. :) Though, I'm sure there are loads of people who'd like to do it as an adventure. I think they are probably the worst candidates to be stuck in a crew cabin with for a long time. Road trip from hell ... if everybody wants to have fun.

But, it's theoretically possible to shorten the travel time to Mars down to two months or less, afa people are concerned by increasing acceleration on the way. Of course, that makes the problem of entering orbit and landing trickier. And, afa coming back to Terra, that indeed might be a problem.

I want them to find an "M" class planet somewhere in the universe where I can walk around like Kirk on Star Trek.:)
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Re: nuclear fusion in France

Postby Trick on Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:30 am

That’s for now yes with cramped space space-cans, clumsy Michelin cosmonaut suits, that not for me...however ‘space x’ space suits looks cool......No I’m saying if I was to be a young guy somewhere there in the future, such as played out in the 1990 total recall movie, id go for it.....
There where some cool instant terraforming nuclear power device too in that flick....the nuclear future looks bright..8-)
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Re: nuclear fusion in France

Postby Steve James on Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:35 pm

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Re: nuclear fusion in France

Postby Trick on Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:22 pm

China has plans for startup this year, and big advancement in the coming thirty years....
https://www.caixinglobal.com/2019-11-27 ... 87640.html

https://world-nuclear-news.org/Articles ... r-research

However US want to be first(as always), can’t accept China’s progress in this field blaming chinas nuclear energy works being to close to its military progress..
While the US themselves do this, it’s OK.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielcohen ... 58949e1070
Last edited by Trick on Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: nuclear fusion in France

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:45 pm

“Bomb Carbon” Has Been Found in Deep-Ocean Creatures
The detection of this radioactive relic of nuclear weapons tests in a remote environment shows humanity’s far-reaching environmental impact.


https://getpocket.com/explore/item/bomb ... ket-newtab

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