Yeung wrote:You mean 千载寺 Qian Zai Temple that was built in AD 68?
yeniseri wrote:1. Both Chen family and Li family migrated from Shaanxi province to Henan Province, whree through other influences, these 2 families came up with a training curriculum for the art of Chen family.. Date given is 1374
2. There was a Qianzai Monastery in Henan Province that apparently was additional in inspiration and proiferation of the art. At some point thereafter (unknown) Li and Chen family fell apart. The books says that MIng/Qing villages squabble and government inequalities of the day "spurred the distancing". QIanzai appears more symbolic than actual influence since it was a local 'symbol of presence" and affiliation with what may be seen as status!
3. It says that the father of the Li brothers 'acquired some knowledge form the senior monks but the extent is unknown. Source: Tai Chi magazine, Vol 37. #2, Summer 2013
3. Sal Conzonieri has documented the origin of what we call taijiquan today. Link: http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle30.htm
Sal has been an inspiration to me and presents the obvious truth for all to see. Postures were "borrowed" from certain martial systems of the day and reconfigured per the Chen/Li founders BUt again, isn't that what Yang, Wu2, Wu3 and Sun style are i.e. reconfigurations to match their founders. Just sayin'
NOTES; If it states Chen Wangting ((陳王廷; 陈王庭; 1580–1660) is 9th generation, then my assumption based on data is the reason for the the age of Chen family art is at leat 500 years old!
salcanzonieri wrote:Wait, no one has ever said that the Li documents are fake, ONLY the stele rubbing.
Every person that reviewed all the existing stuff that is out there has said the Li documents are authentic.
I have never seen anyone, even here on this forum, say that, certainly not in China.
But people from the forum have seen the actual rubbing and it is considered a fake.
salcanzonieri wrote:There are a lot of temples that practiced martial arts in the Luoyang area that were written about and they had been destroyed 100s of years ago.
But no one disputes their existence because they were mentioned various times in writings, etc.
The professors from Beijing University said the Li documents were authentic, not just the genealogy which was part of the documents.
salcanzonieri wrote:The rubbing is the rubbing, no one cares about it.
But, like I said before, it is the Li documents that mention the temple (regardless of the rubbing).
maybe you should contact the professors from Bejing University, maybe they can tell you if there is any historical proof other than the Li documents from the Ming dynasty that they wrote about.
I would think that some kind of mention of it must have been in Tang village or Baoi county, since it claimed to be there. It would require contact with learned people from that area.
There are lots of things not on the internet. The internet should not be the sole source of proof of existence.
I think Jarek went to that area, ask him. You can ask Ken Fish as well if he can dig up a non internet source.
salcanzonieri wrote: ... if there is any historical proof other than the Li documents from the Ming dynasty that they wrote about.
I would like to know that for myself as well.
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