Dynamic Punch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby Overlord on Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:13 am

Thanks John and Marvin for the kind reply.
This is actually what I am referring to:

I hope you guys can see what I am talking about. Cheers

Marvin by my trial and error testing, I believe the heel should not tilt up too much technically,
Assuming you want to send the force of punch entirely forwarded.
When you tilt the heel up too much off the ground the force will drift upward.
Of course if you are a pro boxer it really won’t matter to you how you do it.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby marvin8 on Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:14 am

Overlord wrote:Thanks John and Marvin for the kind reply.
This is actually what I am referring to:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=3X1Dbq3Y61Q
I hope you guys can see what I am talking about. Cheers

I don't read Chinese. So, I don't know what you were talking about.

However starting at 3:38, Naseem shows how he generates power which is documented in another video too. Naseem loads his front foot by slipping and shifting his weight to the front foot, taking his head off line. Then, he transfers his weight to the back foot, coordinating his hook with the rear heel landing.

Image

Overlord wrote:Marvin by my trial and error testing, I believe the heel should not tilt up too much technically,
Assuming you want to send the force of punch entirely forwarded.
When you tilt the heel up too much off the ground the force will drift upward.

Naseem's heel is up in your video. And, it's false according to studies such as, "Kinematic and kinetic analysis of throwing a straight punch: the role of trunk rotation in delivering a powerful straight punch:"

RAT TONG-IAM1, PORNTHEP RACHANAVY2, CHAIPAT LAWSIRIRAT on December 08, 2017 wrote:The lead leg acted as a pivot point, while the rear leg pushed the trunk and the whole body of boxers forward to create punching momentum and, thus, punch force. Therefore, trunk rotation mechanically transferred vertical ground reaction forces to horizontal punching force.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby johnwang on Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:31 pm

The footwork is for:

1. You throw a right groin kick followed by a right face punch. your opponent moves back.
2. You use your left stiff arm as your guard, use a skip jumping footwork to obtain distance (this is the interested part).
3. You then land with right foot with right punch on your opponent's face.

IMO, the footwork makes perfect logic sense.

Image

In the original form, 2 is just a skip (left foot land, right foot skip, left foot advance again). I like the way he added a jump into it. By adding a jump, I can reach to a maximum of 18 feet distance (I may be able to reach to 20 feet distance if I'm younger).

I try to find something worthwhile to train in CMA. The long distance footwork is one of my favor areas.

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Last edited by johnwang on Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby dspyrido on Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:30 pm

I just see it as a training drill. Similar to galloping moves in xy.

The part i don't like is pulling one hand to the waist and leaving it there. It's lost its meaning but draw back the hand is all about gripping an arm for countering, control or snapping. Once it's done then I'd pull it up to shell the head or pin.

Also all this talk about power and ground or mechanics - anyone who's ever fought knows you can get caught mid flight or in a step & should have action vs waiting to plant. Sometimes that exposure is the right time to counter because a rushing opponent can walk straight into it. A well placed light tap can do wonders.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby johnwang on Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:36 pm

dspyrido wrote:The part i don't like is pulling one hand to the waist and leaving it there.

In long fist, all punches come from the waist. When you pull your hand to your waist, that hand is ready to punch out.

The XingYi system also punch out from the waist.

I'm still allergic to "push".
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby yeniseri on Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:06 pm

I remember Prince Naseem! He always appeared 'unorthodox' but despite that he had some great victories.
Though flashy, he had "somewhat" (a relative term here!) strong foundation that allowed him to last a while despite being a "flash in the pan".

He just needed to build more "root strengh" (stability, less body movement, etc) for the long run but I am guessing that depended on his trainer!
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby dspyrido on Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:49 pm

johnwang wrote:The XingYi system also punch out from the waist.



The returning hand does not come back empty. It's seems to be forgotten in many example videos of 5 elements.

Pulling the fist to the waist is not to set up the next punch put to simulate a grab and drag of the opponents arm.

In the above video he uses the little twist of the lead hand to simulate it. The following illustrates why he does it:



But even this is not done the way we train it. We train it with a grab almost visualised like grabbing the belt of an opponent, twisting it and pulling them right into the strike. Technically it could even be used to grab the opponents jacket or anywhere a grip can occur on the body (eg clawing a face).

Also aside from controlling the opponent the combination can also be a qinna move to damage the attackers arm but that one does not seem to come up much.

But to illustrate the point - many do xy with their own flavors.





Personally I don't like either of them but just showing how a single form may seem similar but it is not.

In XY this little changes completely change how the 5 elements can be applied.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby marvin8 on Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:10 pm

johnwang wrote:The footwork is for:

1. You throw a right groin kick followed by a right face punch. your opponent moves back.
2. You use your left stiff arm as your guard, use a skip jumping footwork to obtain distance (this is the interested part).
3. You then land with right foot with right punch on your opponent's face.

IMO, the footwork makes perfect logic sense.

When "you throw a right groin kick followed by a right face punch," your opponent may step to the side and punch your face instead.

When you drill part of a form, you can choose to just repeat the techniques as is or develop other essential CMA skills for fighting, "Empty your mind, be formless. ..." -Bruce Lee. Punch force when opponent walks in > punch force when opponent moves away.

The Naseem shadow boxing clip is for:

1. You lure (yin) with a jab. your opponent moves in with a counter punch.
2. You listen (ting) and slip incoming punch by shifting weight to the front foot (hua, na).
3. You then shift your weight to rear heel while your lead hook lands (fa).

Zhang Yun wrote:4. Using jin in ... fighting.

One common mistake for many people is that they try to use fa jin too directly. They just want to use their jin to beat their opponents as hard as possible. But in real Taiji Quan skill, throwing jin should never be used alone.
The complete process consists of five steps:
1. Ting – listen: feel or detect what the opponent want to do,
2. Hua – melt or dissolve: neutralize the attacking force,
3. Yin – lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go
where you want him to go,
4. Nia - hold or control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced), and
5. Fa - release a throwing force: attack.

In order to be true Taiji skill (high level), the first four steps must be present.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby marvin8 on Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:16 pm

johnwang wrote:The footwork is for:

1. You throw a right groin kick followed by a right face punch. your opponent moves back.
2. You use your left stiff arm as your guard, use a skip jumping footwork to obtain distance (this is the interested part).
3. You then land with right foot with right punch on your opponent's face.

The Cops footwork is for:

1. You stand outside of kicking range.
2. You use stealing step to step forward to the left (positional advantage), move right arm back, away from opponent (lure/yin) while stepping to the left with rear foot.
3. Push off rear foot, use right stiff arm to grab throat and takedown opponent (fa).

Note that most of the steps and skills happen with no contact, until issuing (fa).

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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby Trick on Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:16 am

dspyrido wrote:I just see it as a training drill. Similar to galloping moves in xy.

The part i don't like is pulling one hand to the waist and leaving it there. It's lost its meaning but draw back the hand is all about gripping an arm for countering, control or snapping. Once it's done then I'd pull it up to shell the head or pin.

Also all this talk about power and ground or mechanics - anyone who's ever fought knows you can get caught mid flight or in a step & should have action vs waiting to plant. Sometimes that exposure is the right time to counter because a rushing opponent can walk straight into it. A well placed light tap can do wonders.

Yes, the very rudimentary application of the pulling arm/hand to the hip can be that, that it’s a downward jerk pull of an opponent. However if ones understanding is limited to this one loose the grandioseness of the method...

The “pulling arm/hand” done with the right set of mind is done for the enhancement of an well timed forward spirit toward an opposing force. The pulling act as the opposing force on which to react upon. Combined with a strong forward charge, the exercise is supercharged.
With the forward charge the pulling hand does not act as force coming on toward you but as an force you are overpowering by stepping through it.
And the reason why the pulling hand goes down(to hip area) is for the enhancement of ones spirit to always stand tall(er)
This pulling hand method trains the practitioner to out-time an opponent as for example nailing him in the mid of his forward charge

Well trained and ingrained one will radiate strong confidence and no hooligan would dare to lay a hand on you...... 8-)
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby Bao on Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:38 am

"The part i don't like is pulling one hand to the waist and leaving it there"


The movement of the rear side of the body is what drives the fist forward.

Let me emphasise that I say the rear side of the body, and NOT the rear fist. Why the fist goes to the waist is only to learn and practice the body movement. If you already understand the body movement, you do not need to pull back the fist. You can have it any position, up, close to your face. But the body movement can still be exectly the same.Regardless where you keep your rear fist, you can still wind up your body and store momentum through compressing and expanding the lower ribs as well as use spine movement.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby Trick on Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:03 am

Yes one should be able to strike from what ever position one is in, if one happen to find oneself in a combat situation...

The proper mind method in harmony with the proper form method practice prepares and strengten ones body and mind/spirit to act correct outside the form....
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby Overlord on Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:55 am

marvin8 wrote:
Overlord wrote:Thanks John and Marvin for the kind reply.
This is actually what I am referring to:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=3X1Dbq3Y61Q
I hope you guys can see what I am talking about. Cheers

I don't read Chinese. So, I don't know what you were talking about.

However starting at 3:38, Naseem shows how he generates power which is documented in another video too. Naseem loads his front foot by slipping and shifting his weight to the front foot, taking his head off line. Then, he transfers his weight to the back foot, coordinating his hook with the rear heel landing.

Image

Overlord wrote:Marvin by my trial and error testing, I believe the heel should not tilt up too much technically,
Assuming you want to send the force of punch entirely forwarded.
When you tilt the heel up too much off the ground the force will drift upward.

Naseem's heel is up in your video. And, it's false according to studies such as, "Kinematic and kinetic analysis of throwing a straight punch: the role of trunk rotation in delivering a powerful straight punch:"

RAT TONG-IAM1, PORNTHEP RACHANAVY2, CHAIPAT LAWSIRIRAT on December 08, 2017 wrote:The lead leg acted as a pivot point, while the rear leg pushed the trunk and the whole body of boxers forward to create punching momentum and, thus, punch force. Therefore, trunk rotation mechanically transferred vertical ground reaction forces to horizontal punching force.


Hi Marvin
No that is not the move I was talking about when I was talking Yao Ma He Yi 腰馬合一~
This is a term so common in any CMA movie, and I believe Narseem had illustrated nicely.
And yes I agree with weight shift or weight transfer. But context does dedicate how you deliver your punch.

Hi John,

If you want to use Xingyi as an example then perhaps this clip better illustrate my point


Cheers
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby marvin8 on Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:27 am

Overlord wrote:Hi Marvin
No that is not the move I was talking about when I was talking Yao Ma He Yi 腰馬合一~
This is a term so common in any CMA movie, and I believe Narseem had illustrated nicely.
And yes I agree with weight shift or weight transfer. But context does dedicate how you deliver your punch.

Hi John,

If you want to use Xingyi as an example then perhaps this clip better illustrate my point


Cheers

For the move you were talking about, can you give a time stamp in the Naseem and Xingyi videos or describe the movement? I read a little on the term waist and horse or lead with the hips.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby dspyrido on Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:53 pm

Trick wrote:And the reason why the pulling hand goes down(to hip area) is for the enhancement of ones spirit to always stand tall(er)
This pulling hand method trains the practitioner to out-time an opponent as for example nailing him in the mid of his forward charge

Well trained and ingrained one will radiate strong confidence and no hooligan would dare to lay a hand on you...... 8-)


Against a bad fighter, an unsuspecting target or someone who is drunk ... maybe.

But against a good fighter - I'd rather have my hand in place to have a chance of stopping me getting punched in the face.
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