Dynamic Punch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:27 am

The deeper aspects of Iken Hissatsu is not to be understood by being drunk or on other drugs kamikazeing or berserking
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby klonk on Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:19 am

Trick wrote:The deeper aspects of Iken Hissatsu is not to be understood by being drunk or on other drugs kamikazeing or berserking


That is quite entirely true. No doubt about it. However, if you make a mistake in all-out attack, it hardly matters whether you were led to your mistake by philosophy or by sake.

That said, ikken hisatsu is an approach worthy of everyone's study, but I suggest caution in when and how you apply it. Some would say that if I recommend caution I do not recommend ikken hisatsu, but I disagree.
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby Quigga on Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:15 am

Thank you for introducing me to Iken Hissatsu. Without ability to create change you don't need compassion and hindsight.
Without compassion and hindsight you will be very limited in creating change.
Caution means the eyes are disconnected from the rest of the body... Useful, but imo shouldn't be the end point...
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby Trick on Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:10 pm

The term/philosophy of Ikken hissatsu in Shotokan karate derives from the sword school Jigen-ryu
. Chui was asked what the essence of Jigen-ryu was by a student, and answered as follows. The meaning of Jigen-ryu is to polish your and sharpen your beloved sword, then secure it firmly into its scabbard, say nothing rude, do nothing rude or offensive, always have correct manners, and never draw your sword. One of the hand guards made by Chui has two small holes which could be used to pass a thread through securing the sword in its scabbard and making it more difficult to draw in anger. One of Chui’s students was suddenly involved in a confrontation and remembering this teaching didn’t reach for his sword as the opponent approached. Just as he thought he was about to be cut down, he realized that his sword was drawn and his opponent was lying dead in front of him. The teaching “swords are not to be drawn” warns against unnecessary killing and that when in danger having no doubts and being in a state of munen-muso is the central teaching of this school of swordsmanship.
http://www.jigen-ryu.com/index_e.html

https://www.karatebyjesse.com/what-is-ikken-hissatsu/
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby klonk on Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:38 pm

A great deal of the samurai tradition is narcissistic, better to die beautifully ("like a dropping cherry blossom") than to make a mistake or admit to making one. Notice the penalty for admitting a serious mistake, you are supposed fatally to stab yourself. One should be cautions in reading (much less employing) the philosphy of bushido, for there is much there to lead a man astray.

I view quotes like Trick's, above, as more poetic than factual, stressing (beyond easy believability) the power of the backroom brain to defend you when you have told it not to. My wu xin/mushin backroom has a latch on it. I don't want what lives there getting out, most days.

A number of nations still harbor resentment against Japan for bushido. The best that can be said is the Japanese have not done anything like that in the present century. I am cautious about the lessons of Japanese martial tradition because I do not want to be like them. So I say. Perhaps, though, the matter stands differently: I do not wish to admit to being like them.
Last edited by klonk on Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:46 am

Jigenryu and other koryu schools came along during civil war eras. budo came on late 19-early 20th century ? seeing such as kendo judo and also “modern” karate such as Shotokan came forward. Old philosophy from old school still hung around but where interpreted by students with little training and experience.......now I’m not sure about this, but a samurai was often trained not only in methods how hacking people into pieces ?
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby klonk on Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:13 pm

The relationship between ancient and modern methods is obscure, at best. Jiu jitsu routinely claims samurai origin, while karate says it came from people opposed to the samurai.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby Trick on Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:07 pm

Yes the stories how peasants developed karate because the satsuma clan refused them holding any arms..
However, all(most all) the legendary karate masters out of Okinawa were of higher class, many also trained in “samurai” arts...https://www.karatebyjesse.com/karate-my ... nd-karate/
Last edited by Trick on Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby klonk on Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:16 pm

As I got the story, karate started long before the Satsuma mob showed up, and involved those close to the titular (but disarmed) royalty of Okinawa. Involved, no doubt, were the upper classes, but not, I would say, them exclusively. Some weapons associated with Okinawan karate are peasant implements, and everyone, it seems, is willing to grant the influence of an indigenous fighting tradition (te, tegumi) on how karate turned out of the oven.

So, karate does not agree on its traditions or history, or the right application of its techniques, and the philosophy department is a mess, but hey, they are a great bunch of guys, and very fit!
Last edited by klonk on Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:03 pm

klonk wrote:As I got the story, karate started long before the Satsuma mob showed up, and involved those close to the titular (but disarmed) royalty of Okinawa. Involved, no doubt, were the upper classes, but not, I would say, them exclusively. Some weapons associated with Okinawan karate are peasant implements, and everyone, it seems, is willing to grant the influence of an indigenous fighting tradition (te, tegumi) on how karate turned out of the oven.

So, karate does not agree on its traditions or history, or the right application of its techniques, and the philosophy department is a mess, but hey, they are a great bunch of guys, and very fit!

You find those peasant weapons in Fujian Province too......

About tegumi -the Okinawan (Sumo)wrestling was a safe combat sport for especially Okinawan youngsters to participate in.
If look at karates katas there are lot of “wrestling” stuff too, just as their Chinese source has too. ...Turn “Tegumi” around and you have Kumite which came around when Karate became a more structured practice, perhaps mostly with Anko Ituso who was quite an reformer and saw to that karate became more avalible for the public and not just for a chosen few(more peasants could join in 8-) ) Before his reforms karate practice followed somewhat the same codes of accepting students that many of its original boxing arts from China followed.

Ok, we drifted quite off topic, so I swing a little back to punching/striking practice with - The classical karate training tool - the Makiwara(striking post), which might have been influenced by Satsumas Jigen-ryu practice methods.
Last edited by Trick on Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby klonk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:38 pm

Take a running start at a makiwara and I think you will see the essence of my objection.
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Re: Dynamic Punch

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:44 pm

klonk wrote:Take a running start at a makiwara

They actually kind of do that in Jigen ryu if I remember right from videos I seen. However the makiwara is stationary so (at least in karate)being “stationary” oneself while striking it is the norm,
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