Punch retraction

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Punch retraction

Postby suckinlhbf on Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:25 pm

So you pull in the direction you want to punch?
You fa jin through the feet, leave it there or circle it around the body?

The old saying is "punch after you touch". So pull in the direction of the punch.
In Fajin, head up and drop the body, the whole body will stretch, one end is the fist on the body and the other end is the heel on the ground. Power comes from the rebound from the ground. There are many other methods too which depend on personal liking.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:23 pm

Too much self improvement there for me
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Yeung on Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:36 am

Clip provided by Master Wang on a reverse punch:

Image

The xingyi kinetic chain of 9 sets of joints (left ankle, left knee, left hip joint, lumbar spine, thoracic spine, cervical spine, right shoulder, right elbow, and right wrist) can all stretched in theory plus the stepping forward motion to complete the final strike so to speak. The left arm is pulled backward to assist the rotation of the spines and right leg is being dragged behind which in theory can rotate inward to assist stability when landed. In theory, the straight punch at the end should be the sum of all the stretch strengths of all the relevant joints.

Will that strike produces a recoil? If yes, can he utilizes that recoil to do a left straight punch with assistance from the right leg or other actions? If yes, then we have demonstrated the theory of “utilization of stored elastic energy” in certain types of martial arts.

The summation theory is that all the joints work together to perform the initial strike while the transmission theory is that the recoil returned to the body to perform a continual action to utilize the stored elastic energy. Most martial arts have complex movements which are difficult to demonstrate or explain, and the whip cracking example is simple and straight forward except it does not work too well for people who do not know how to handle a whip. The cycle of forward and backward cracks illustrated the utilization of stored elastic energy with the additional rotation of the arm to produce the subsequent crack.

Some simple examples I can think of at this moment are the followings:

1. Cai Lie cycle (diagonal downward pull and diagonal upward thrust)

2. Block and punch cycle in Paoquan

3. Tan shou and palm strike cycle in Wing Chun

4. Press and thrust cycle in Baguaquan

I am sure there are more but I think most of the common ones involved too many alternatives.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:42 am

suckinlhbf wrote: But I heard from the old masters that Fa Jin is always 起随追 (pull). Those old masters do not have the academic/scientific knowledge as most of you do but their conclusion come from their survival experience. The student of Wang Xiang Zhai I met had spent years to find something that could explain YiQuan FaJin.
pulls and pushes visualizations are essential in YiQuan practice(which of course is so in Xingyiquan practice too). Without the felling of those there’s no correct Quan practice in ones YiQuan.
The play with pushes and pulls one harness that sudden sharp spark of “explosion” in striking but most important in ones reaction time cause the practice is very much about developing ones sense of listening/sensitivity/timing. This does not take long time to get a fairly good understanding of when one received the correct practice methods.
The pushes and pulls is not so much about how one punch but when one punch in combat as well as in solo practice
The important power lay in the superior timing and non telegraphing skill developed..
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby windwalker on Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:09 am

Interesting reading

"punch retraction"


Hop Gar, Tibetan White Crane, classed by some as a long arm striking art.

IME looks at it a little differently .

Understanding and minimizing the gap between
hitting and hitting again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORfOICflKIw
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby suckinlhbf on Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:20 am

The pushes and pulls is not so much about how one punch

Pushes and pulls is in the si lei of YiQuan. It is also on how to make a punch. The argument is: a punch could 1) start from the leg, to the body, then to the hand, or 2) point by the fist, follow by the body, push by the leg. Li Wenbin (Shang Style Xingyi) suggested it should be 1) and his father in law Shang Yunxiang said it should be 2).
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:18 am

The clip above is not what I would consider a good example of a reverse punch

What do others think

The thing of leading with foot or fist
The foot is a training method the hand a combat reality
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:39 am

Yeung wrote:Clip provided by Master Wang on a reverse punch:

Image

The xingyi kinetic chain of 9 sets of joints (left ankle, left knee, left hip joint, lumbar spine, thoracic spine, cervical spine, right shoulder, right elbow, and right wrist) can all stretched in theory plus the stepping forward motion to complete the final strike so to speak. The left arm is pulled backward to assist the rotation of the spines and right leg is being dragged behind which in theory can rotate inward to assist stability when landed. In theory, the straight punch at the end should be the sum of all the stretch strengths of all the relevant joints.

In the baji punch clip, Adam Hsu generates power by pushing off the rear foot creating ground reaction force, torque of shoulder and hips (90° recoil), falling step (momentum), weight transfer and chambering of fist.

Yeung wrote:Will that strike produces a recoil? If yes, can he utilizes that recoil to do a left straight punch with assistance from the right leg or other actions? If yes, then we have demonstrated the theory of “utilization of stored elastic energy” in certain types of martial arts.

No, once the punch has extended/finished, the recoil is finished. To do a left straight punch, Adam will repeat the contract/expand cycle.

A baji biomechanical study done on Chen Xiang at Stanford:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN88QIsMHqA

Yeung wrote:The summation theory is that all the joints work together to perform the initial strike while the transmission theory is that the recoil returned to the body to perform a continual action to utilize the stored elastic energy. Most martial arts have complex movements which are difficult to demonstrate or explain, and the whip cracking example is simple and straight forward except it does not work too well for people who do not know how to handle a whip. The cycle of forward and backward cracks illustrated the utilization of stored elastic energy with the additional rotation of the arm to produce the subsequent crack.

I don't believe the whip cracking video is a good representative of a sequential kinetic chain punch which generates power by transferring ground force, rotation (torque) and weight transfer (in the case of the reverse punch).
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby LaoDan on Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:52 pm

wayne hansen wrote:What could be more kinetic chain than this

The energy is rooted in the feet
Sprouts from the thighs
Directed by the waist
Manifests in the finger tips

I think that the TJQ saying can be applied to both kinetic chain and pulse (and hybrid) types of power generation.

The mechanism of the Newton’s cradle toy that I am referring to is the same one used to “root” an opponent’s force, depending on whether one is receiving or issuing (receiving travels from contact with the opponent to contact with the ground; issuing is the reverse, from the ground to the opponent). Rooting does not utilize kinetic chain mechanics, but does use the same alignments as pulse power does. The middle balls in the toy can transmit the power in either direction, from one end to the other and back and forth.

One can receive this way with very little kinetic chain type of movement:


Issuing with pulse dynamics is rarely pure, even when people demonstrate 1” or 3” punches. There is almost always some amount of kinetic chain type of power generation added. Long power tends to favor kinetic chain dynamics, but short power tends to emphasize pulse power. If one can do both types, then they can mix them along a continuum rather than only using one or the other exclusively. But there is almost always less motion, either wind-up or follow-through, when the power is a combination of pulse and kinetic chain. Someone throwing a javelin or pitching a baseball use kinetic chain power generation, but their momentum carries them off-balance. But in TJQ we train to maintain our central equilibrium and avoid letting our momentum throw us off balance.

The following video shows various fajin movements, some longer and some shorter. But central equilibrium is maintained throughout:


Is he sacrificing power by not committing as much kinetic chain motion as someone throwing a baseball or javelin? If not, then why? That is what I am interested in. If it is not purely kinetic chain, but still produces similar power (if it IS similar power), then what is the alternative explanation (other than the vague “qi” explanation)? My answer is that there is a mixing in of pulse power that allows significant power generation without sacrificing one’s central equilibrium. The body can stay centered while delivering power if the displacement required with kinetic chain motions is partially replaced with pulse power. In the demonstrations, even though the arms show kinetic chain motions, there is less windup (or follow-through) that seen with someone throwing a baseball or a javelin. Why? Again, I would say that they are adding pulse power generation, at least in part. Do you consider the power generation of long and short power to be the same? If not, then what accounts for the difference? (Again, I would say that significant pulse power is added in short power generation.)
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:11 pm

Don't quite get why hey are using ba Ji to explain tai chi
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:25 pm

LaoDan wrote:Someone throwing a javelin or pitching a baseball use kinetic chain power generation, but their momentum carries them off-balance. But in TJQ we train to maintain our central equilibrium and avoid letting our momentum throw us off balance.

The following video shows various fajin movements, some longer and some shorter. But central equilibrium is maintained throughout:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LosS2vjmek

Baseball, javelin and American football analogies (detailed) are used because they have the same stages as in a kinetic chain punch. However, punch mechanics are more conservative (not as much cocking or wind up) because there is an opponent potentially countering. In the Adam baji clip, he is lifting the front foot while loading his weight to the back foot (storing elastic energy), as a baseball pitcher does. However, he doesn't overcommit and lose his balance or central equilibrium. Although in short, Adam's baji punch telegraphs and leaves him open to counters.

LaoDan wrote:Is he sacrificing power by not committing as much kinetic chain motion as someone throwing a baseball or javelin? If not, then why? That is what I am interested in. If it is not purely kinetic chain, but still produces similar power (if it IS similar power), then what is the alternative explanation (other than the vague “qi” explanation)? My answer is that there is a mixing in of pulse power that allows significant power generation without sacrificing one’s central equilibrium. The body can stay centered while delivering power if the displacement required with kinetic chain motions is partially replaced with pulse power. In the demonstrations, even though the arms show kinetic chain motions, there is less windup (or follow-through) that seen with someone throwing a baseball or a javelin. Why? Again, I would say that they are adding pulse power generation, at least in part. Do you consider the power generation of long and short power to be the same? If not, then what accounts for the difference? (Again, I would say that significant pulse power is added in short power generation.)

No, Hsu and Wang punches are not the same. "Short power" uses more kinetic chain push-like movements (Blazevich, 2012) than throw-like movements. (Although, Bruce Lee's one inch punch uses the kinetic chain and waist/hip power.)

A NFL quarterback and baseball pitcher throw the ball rather than push, because it generates more power. Having said that, there may be advantages to "short power" in certain situations.
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:26 pm

wayne hansen wrote:The clip above is not what I would consider a good example of a reverse punch

What do others think

The thing of leading with foot or fist
The foot is a training method the hand a combat reality

The man look stiff as in immobile . Top heavy and all over stiff....But it’s just a gif
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:00 pm

Excerpts from "The Science of the Knockout (KO):"

Marshall @ Taiji Neigong, on May 15th, 2014 wrote:While it may be controversial, I write this from the perspective that everything in this article is contained in the centuries old classical tai chi principles. Brain science and sport science have come a long way since then, allowing for lots of new descriptions & measurements… but I’m confident our taijiquan forebears were well aware of much of what’s contained herein. ...

Kinetic Linking In Taijiquan: The Science

For a specific example of taijiquan’s approach to “Kinetic Linking”, well presented in a scientific setting, the following video is one of the best. It includes motion capture footage of Chen taijiquan master Chen Xiang’s, filmed & compiled as part of a study on Tai Chi conducted at Stanford University’s Motion & Gait Lab back in 2008:

https://youtu.be/HN88QIsMHqA

I recommend skipping ahead to 0:30, where the experiment & process here is summarized. One of the most notable sections, inline with our kinetic linking discussion includes the following:

We have identified 3 essential bio-mechanical elements of the tai chi master’s strike.

First we found that master Chen applies to the ground a force of 2200 Newtons, and a torque of 11,000 Newton/meters when he strikes, precisely when his hand reaches maximum velocity. We hypothesize that he may be pushing off or pivoting from the ground into the object. As you can imagine, the force he transfers into the object must also be very high

[High magnitude floor reaction data: Force applied = 3x body weight; torque applied = 16x body weight * meter]

Our second hypothesis looks at the rotation of master Chen’s feet, hips, and shoulders. We believe that master Chen optimizes momentum transferred into his target by translating the angular momentum of his hips and shoulders into the linear momentum of his striking hand… the master spirals into his target at the same time he is moving forwards from his feet, hips, and shoulder.

Our third hypothesis highlights the fact that the tai chi master may be delivering his impact as an intense short burst of energy that can best be described as an Impulse. Based on Newton’s 2nd law, Force increases as the time of contact decreases, as demonstrated by the short amount of time his arm stays extended before being relaxed, we predict that the master may only contact his target for 25 milliseconds, giving him extremely optimized bio-mechanical advantages only possible by very elite athletes.

These three hypotheses are all worth unpacking & exploring one-by-one, and at some point I will definitely be devoting an entire article to taijiquan’s approach to the Impulse of Force… but for now let’s just briefly look at each from the perspective of kinetic linking. ...
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby marvin8 on Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:40 am

Adam Hsu's punch is weaker. Because, he finishes his torque (uncoiling or spiral) while in the air, before his falling step is complete.

At 4:28, this video shows torque done after the foot is down generates more power.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui92pQNsKkI&t=4m28s

And at 2:04 ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhTg0KHmYNw&t=2m19s
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Re: Punch retraction

Postby suckinlhbf on Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:53 am



This Baji demonstration shows the combination of Kinetic and Pulse types of power generation in one single move. Kinetic type power comes from the body movement while Pulse type power comes from the spontaneous expansion from the center of the body (Dantian) which requires the hip and lower rib cage elasticity together with a strong and power diaphragm. Baji moves can merge both types in an optimal way so the power is huge.
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