Trump supporters commit sedition

[roger hao]

[roger hao]

[Steve James]

So, Roger, you believe the violence was caused by Antifa posing as Trump supporters. (And, that Trump supporters didn't do much, if anything, and weren't the major portion of those who did damage).

Oh, so Special forces and Antifa stole Pelosi's laptop, and that's why she wants Trump impeached, and why he's been banned from social media. (Even though he could always go on FOX news or make a presidential address. I've got a feeling that the "Secrets in Pelosi's emails" are going to be talked about for a long time. (Just like the Antifa agent disguised as capitol police who shot that girl. (Except that it looks like the shooter was wearing a suit and was already inside the chamber she was trying to break in to).

Oh well, those Trump supporters sure got along well with the Antifa crowd. Hmmm, they sure didn't try to hold them back. Anyway, I enjoyed the part in the second video where the narrator talks about the special power of reading the rosary.

[roger hao]

[Finny]

Hilarious. That's what I was going to point out to Ian and Steve - neither trial nor admission/apology from Trump will have any impact on 'his' supporters. They're not supporting him, they're just absolutely committed to rejecting anything put forward by any media or anything popularly agreed upon.

That 'finance hub' video is a wonderful example of the type of thinking. He literally read an article quoting the President, and responded "don't believe this, this is what the 'mainstream media' want you to believe".. "these are clearly not Trump supporters (based on my eyeball test)"

I'm not going to bother with the rest, but seriously Roger, do you actually waste your time listening to that shit? It's so upsetting to see people you assumed had some rationality and capacity for reason devolve to that. A good friend of mine has been posting similar garbage elsewhere. Nothing anyone can say or do will ever convince him that he doesn't know better. It must feel nice.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

@ Steve and Finny, hmm, it's pretty obvious that blocking Trump from running for president in '24 would have a major impact on the Trump movement and his followers. I'm not claiming that the movement (along with Q and related Trump specific lunacy) would disappear, but to claim that it would have "no impact" is pretty silly.

@ Steve, I agree that Trump is largely a symptom, but you (nor can anyone) can't (edited from "can") say with certainty that racist ultranationalist currents would have expressed themselves in this specific way (it hasn't happened since 1812). So, while Trump is a symptom of underlying problems, he has also curated a specific subculture that is clearly affected by his actions and words. So, again, successfully baring him from office would make a difference. It probably won't happen as even now 2/3ds of the Senate is very unlikely to convict him. But, it's more likely than Trump becoming a different person. Maybe if his mindless minions start popping Senators they will wake up.

@ Finny, yeah, it is illustrative to have the lunatic fringe posting here without an ounce of self-awareness. It's sad, but we get a dose of how a decent number of Americans think. And remember: Covid is not a virus!

[Steve James]

Ian, 1812 had nothing to do with ultra nationalism or ultranationalists. It was the British who invaded the Capitol, not the Confederates. But, there is an ample history of nationalist violence in the US since the 19th century. It is not going away, any more than the Confederate flag. If you think that Trump in jail changes the people who fly that flag, I think you're wrong. And, I'd argue that they'll be as easy to change as the people who believe that Antifa played a major role in the Capitol attack.

My argument remains that the only person who could possibly change their minds would be Trump himself, live and in person. Symptom or disease, he's their leader and they believe him.

[everything]

It's no longer what I call stupidity that is baffling. It's the being completely unhinged from reality that is really startling. People really believe the lies and the fake news about fake news, it seems. Some kind of mass delusion.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Ian, 1812 had nothing to do with ultra nationalism or ultranationalists. It was the British who invaded the Capitol, not the Confederates. But, there is an ample history of nationalist violence in the US since the 19th century. It is not going away, any more than the Confederate flag. If you think that Trump in jail changes the people who fly that flag, I think you're wrong. And, I'd argue that they'll be as easy to change as the people who believe that Antifa played a major role in the Capitol attack.

My argument remains that the only person who could possibly change their minds would be Trump himself, live and in person. Symptom or disease, he's their leader and they believe him.

Ian, 1812 had nothing to do with ultra nationalism or ultranationalists.

Never said it did.

It was the British who invaded the Capitol, not the Confederates.

Yes, I took grade school history (and college and graduate school)

The capitol building has not been breached since the war of 1812. You can equate or compare the recent incursion to other events, but do you think that the legislatures think they are the same? Or that they will take similar action?

I already clearly stated that these forms of extremism won't disappear with Trump, so I'm not sure why you are misrepresenting my arguments.

What's the use of forwarding solutions that will never happen? Hey, if all the racists were transported to the moon, the problem would probably be solved, for a bit. But, what's the point of even suggesting such a thing. Also, you are forwarding a contradictory argument. You claim that it's not about Trump or his agency, but then argue he is the only one who can fix it.

[Steve James]

I responded to this.

@ Steve, I agree that Trump is largely a symptom, but you (nor can anyone) can't (edited from "can") say with certainty that racist ultranationalist currents would have expressed themselves in this specific way (it hasn't happened since 1812).

I say "it" has happened quite a bit before Trump. I'm not questioning your knowledge of history. I'm saying that putting Trump in jail is not a solution. Hopefully, it'd be a deterrent --to future presidents-- but it will probably have the opposite effect on ardent nationalists and racists.

What's the use of forwarding solutions that will never happen?

Fair enough. But, what's happening is that he's simply repeating the same things he's said before and reinforcing the views of many. He won't sit in a cell for years, if ever. Meanwhile, he'll continue to be a problem. Jmo.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

All good. The "it" is the specific way they expressed themselves, which was storming the capitol. Simply a misunderstanding there.

I agree that it is unlikely that Trump will go anywhere for years. But, if they did prosecute him, he would go somewhere (the clink) and be less of a rallying point. Who knows, he may not run after this most recent fiasco, but if he does, it's all going to happen again. I agree that he will continue to be a problem. But, he'd continue to be a problem even if he did as you suggest--mainly because he won't mean it and he'll just do it again.

[GrahamB]

Roger Hao,

What if QAnon is only a conspiracy theory, Trump lost the election by a wide margin, Antifa isn't behind any of this, and it's just an angry mob of self-deceived bigots and grifters supporting a low-rent crime family? That would be wild.

[Pero]

Uh, this is the stuff that someone started by going to an antifa website, seeing pictures of some people on it, assuming (being nice here) that they are antifa, when in fact they were pictures of people antifa considers to be Nazis.
Guy with the horns is known as Qanon Shaman. Doesn't seem like antifa material to me but he of course could be an infiltrator agent from Antifa's secret special unit.

[Giles]

Wow, quite memorable videos.
A couple of years ago I watched the Netflix documentary "Behind the Curve" about the flat-earth community. It's a good film and not unsympathetic to many of the featured persons: https://www.netflix.com/title/81015076 --- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behind_the_Curve. At the time I thought: woah, most of these people are pretty much off the chart, truly closed to rationality or scientific evidence and argument, lots of circular thinking, it's a cult, but in a way many of them are quite endearing too. They are not destructive, they don't seem to be people who are going to actually try to bomb or shoot up a NASA office building just because they think the organization is 'a deceiver'. If not "Harmless" then at least "Mostly harmless".

But now the flat-earth mindset/worldview has converged with US national politics and we can see the results, in these videos and thousands of other similar videos and websites, in Washington and among millions of Americans (= American voters). Is this a wave that will gradually subside over the next year or two (so that people can once more politically disagree and hate each other in the 'normal, old-fashioned way')? Will it continue to represent a major force in politics, with frequent resurgence? Or will this 'culture', this way of thinking and acting, spread even further? Will it seep into all political factions and persuasions so that on all sides people perceive, argue and act in ways similar to this? Just about indistinguishable apart from the colour of their hats. I truly hope not, but I'll be honest, it scares me.

[Steve James]

Ian, I knew it was a trivial misunderstanding. Right now, I'm more interested in what happens in the next 10 days. No doubt there are going to be more "demonstrations" for Trump in support of his ideas. It's not hard to imagine that what happened at the Capitol won't happen at a state house near "you." That's why fences, walls, and barriers are going up all over. Many lawmakers are in fear for their lives --and they're Republicans.

There are calls on social media for a MAGA march today in NYC. So, obviously, there's going to be a counter protest. And, if there's any violence, each side will blame the other. I live near the Bronx Supreme Court. Nope. Ain't worried about here, though.