salcanzonieri wrote:Yeung wrote:There is no pre Chen Fake Chen style Taijiquan, you have to argue that Fu Zhensong did not learn Taijiquan from Chen Yanxi.
Please elaborate.
salcanzonieri wrote:My, and not just me but others, conjecturing is that Che FaKe may have seen Yang CF style Yang and proceeded accordingly.
HotSoup wrote:The problem with this theory is that YCF’s form itself falls rather on the simpler side of the spectrum. Majority of the new transitional movement in CFK’s form cannot be found in that of YCF. I bet on CFK’s own creativity and ideas he picked up in Beijing from everything what he saw, from Xingyi to Shuajiao, including possible back-porting of ideas from Yang and Wu TJQ.
Another factor can be his remoteness from Chenjiagou. In an environment of multiple (related but competing?) lineages it is harder to make significant changes, because there are always lots of uncles and grandpas around telling you that what you’re doing is wrong, that you’re going against the ancestors’ will by making your own changes and so on. When you’re hundreds miles away in Beijing, it’s way easier to do whatever you feel fit.
GrahamB wrote:Chen Fa Ke and Chen ZhaoPi already knew "Chen family boxing" - easy to put that into the same sequence as the rather simple Yang Cheng Fu form. Chen family boxing was probably more intricate than YCF, hence the more intricate Chen form.
Yeung wrote:salcanzonieri wrote:Yeung wrote:There is no pre Chen Fake Chen style Taijiquan, you have to argue that Fu Zhensong did not learn Taijiquan from Chen Yanxi.
Please elaborate.
Oh, the Chen family martial is know to be Shan Xi Hong Tong Bei Quan 山西洪洞通背拳 and there are lots materials in Youtub. How Chen Yanxi transform it into Taijiquan is a bit technical but if you apply internal principles to any external martial arts, it properly workout okay except some difficult movements, like getting up from a half split for example. From my observation, most chen practitioners can't drop into a half split anyway.
salcanzonieri wrote:GrahamB wrote:Chen Fa Ke and Chen ZhaoPi already knew "Chen family boxing" - easy to put that into the same sequence as the rather simple Yang Cheng Fu form. Chen family boxing was probably more intricate than YCF, hence the more intricate Chen form.
And, the Chen Yi Lu very clearly follows the same order of movements as the Shaolin TZ Chang Quan set and the Shaolin Xie Quan (slanting, as in brush knee, twist or slanting),
here is my chart of the one to one, the forms even repeat the same material at the same place in their sequences:
http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/images/comparison%20Chen%20TJQ%20vs%20Shaolin%20TZQ%20and%20XYQ.pdf
HotSoup wrote:Well, Sal, if are you going to marry these two theories, that would imply that the Yang form is basically Shaolin Taizu, because according to the "heretics" this is how the Chens have got it — from Yang. Is it what you are driving at? That would be a huge hit for those still serious about "Chen is just Shaolin, but everything derived from Yang Luchan is a magically crafted pinnacle of martial arts"
Bob wrote:Chen Zhaopei was a disciple of Chen Fake
Chen Zhaokui was the youngest son of Chen Fake
Substantial variation in what they learned?
Lots of variation even within a line of the Chen taijiquan lineage?
I don't know if this will ever be resolved but I see more similarities than differences but then again I am definitely not an expert on Chen Taijiquan and the lineage.
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