Finny wrote:I was curious to hear everyone's thoughts, and my thanks to those who gave them. You are of course free to, you know.. not, after all, Doc.
Bao wrote:Tom wrote:The name “taijiquan” was not used before Yang Luchan made his appearance at the Zhang pickle family’s banquet in Beijing in the 1850s.
Court examiner Weng Tonghe (1830–1904) wrote a poem dedicated To YLC: “Hands holding T’ai chi shakes the whole world, a chest containing ultimate skill defeats a gathering of heroes.” If he was the one who invented or coined the name, or if someone had used it earlier, is unclear. But this is the earliest source we know about.The source of that name was not the Chen family nor the Li family documents of Tang village.
You know that the Li family documents are fake, right?
Kevin_Wallbridge wrote:Bao wrote:Tom wrote:The name “taijiquan” was not used before Yang Luchan made his appearance at the Zhang pickle family’s banquet in Beijing in the 1850s.
Court examiner Weng Tonghe (1830–1904) wrote a poem dedicated To YLC: “Hands holding T’ai chi shakes the whole world, a chest containing ultimate skill defeats a gathering of heroes.” If he was the one who invented or coined the name, or if someone had used it earlier, is unclear. But this is the earliest source we know about.The source of that name was not the Chen family nor the Li family documents of Tang village.
You know that the Li family documents are fake, right?
Are they?
"Before turning to the significance of the Li family documents, it cannot be assumed that their authenticity has gone unchallenged. The argument for the authenticity of the documents begins with two early adopters: Cheng Feng, professor of local history at nearby Jiaozuo Normal School, and Wei Meizhi, director of the Boai County Office of Geographic Names. They point out that the genealogy was in the hands of sixteenth generation Li Taicun’s wife Wang Guiying, who was illiterate and had neither the means nor the motivation to produce a forgery. Moreover, interviews with villagers confirm details of the genealogy and the tradition of martial arts practice in the region. Information in the genealogy is attested in local gazetteers and gravestone inscriptions, and the location of gravestones corresponds to descriptions in the genealogy. Moreover, the veracity of the genealogy is confirmed by Li Yuanshan’s admission of father Li Zhong and uncle Li Yan’s rebel backgrounds, embarrassing details he had every reason to conceal. Wang Xuhao, who is not sympathetic with claims of Daoist connections, nevertheless points out that the current holder of the manuscript Wang Guiying had three family members killed by the Li family during the Cultural Revolution and lacked any inclination to credit them with past glories. Cheng and Wei rest their case by pointing out that family genealogies were an integral part of ancestor worship, and any falsifications would be sacrilegious [Cheng et al 2015]. Yan Ziyuan reinforces this by pointing out that the texts observe all the name taboos of emperors and reign years of the Ming and Qing periods, a nicety that would not have been necessary during the Republican or later periods [Yan 2016]."
Wile, Douglas. 2016. ‘Fighting Words: Four New Document Finds Reignite Old Debates in Taijiquan Historiography’, Martial Arts Studies 4, 17-35.
Doc Stier wrote:Hey, Finny, interesting topic, but since you aren't a TCC practitioner, why are you even interested in the history of the art? Any answers to your questions are purely subjective and hypothetical in any case, as we will probably never know with any certainty.
Steve James wrote:I've heard people argue that Yang tjq is not the original or real tjq. But, then there's evidence that it was a Yang performer's demonstration that was first described as "taiji." So Yang style can have its own origin precisely because it was an evolution. Um, that doesn't imply that the myth of Chang San Feng is presented, any more than the legend of Jiang Fa.
Bao wrote:The problem with both of Yang and Chen styles is that when we speak about these styles, we speak about two recent inventions, both invented and popularized in the early 20th century. When we think about Yang style, we associate to a box or a package that Yang Chengfu was responsible for. When we think about Chen style, we associate to a box or a package that Chen Fake was responsible for.
If we go further back in time, no one spoke about styles and no one cared about what the different masters made different in their forms. All those style differences started to become emphasized first in the 20th century just for the sake of branding. So what was first was neither Chen or Yang style, it was something else.
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