One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:33 pm

Clearly, although a person may be physically motionless externally, the internal movement of blood, intrinsic energy, internal organs, and mental activity continues invisibly within.

From both a nei-tan perspective and a martial art perspective, I am far more interested in and more concerned about these various inner movements than I am about the external shapes and movements of forms, drills, applications, fighting strategies and tactics, etc.

Get the inside components right, and the outside components will naturally fall into place. ;)
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Re: One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Postby everything on Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:50 pm

If you’re very fast, it might take 300ms to perceive you should move.

Beyond that, it should be like BL said.

If your hand is too close to the stove fire, you automatically move.

There isn’t a need or thought of which part led that. Probably the hand but it just happens

The BL thing is true in sports as well. If you react to a tennis ball, it starts with the feet.

Rooted in the feet etc. You can react without but it won’t be as good.

But it becomes nearly automatic/“whole body”. If you need to volley with no time for footwork, it seems automatic
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Re: One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Postby Bao on Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:42 am

Taste of Death wrote:My thoughts on one part moves, all parts move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36iPPYN059k


Thanks for sharing. The only thing though is that I wouldn't automatically count in the knees together with the rest of the moment. The knee is a hinge, it must always need to move straight in a track. If the spiraling, rotating movements of the body is translated into the knees, then you will have problems and slowly damage the knees.

Doc Stier wrote:From both a nei-tan perspective and a martial art perspective, I am far more interested in and more concerned about these various inner movements than I am about the external shapes and movements of forms, drills, applications, fighting strategies and tactics, etc.


This is something I totally agree with. 8-)

Doc Stier wrote:Get the inside components right, and the outside components will naturally fall into place. ;)


This is something I am not sure if I totally agree with. The internal components must be there first, agreed. But I also see people who seem to be locked inside their own bodies. Some external shape and external body method is often necessary to bridge the internal with external. And sometimes, the line between external and internal is very fine. Sometimes you really need to open up the body from the outside. The three gates for instance, speaking about Neidan (/Nei Tan), are often regarded as psycho-physiological places. You can use external exercise to open up these gates from the outside, which will enhance the flow of qi especially to the head and to the extremities.
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Re: One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:55 am

Taste of Death wrote:My thoughts on one part moves, all parts move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36iPPYN059k

Some inaccuracies in your video:

1. Whole body power can be sequential (kinetic linking). For example, dantian/waist leads the shoulder/hand. It does not mean one is using only "arm power."

CMA, MMA, boxing, etc., use both types of whole body power generation depending on distance, hand (lead or rear) and type of punch (e.g., jab, hook, uppercut, etc). Throwing using sequential, whole body power is found to generate the most power in sports and setting world records (e.g., football, baseball, javelin throw, etc).

2. At 1:49, "Aldo throws a punch and he doesn't follow it." No, Aldo attempts to follow (step) with his punch. However, McGregor yields and punches Aldo in between his step. This is a problem with stepping with your punches, as you demonstrate.

3. At 2:02, you say boxing punches and brings it back. But, CMA always pulls or takes something back. However, boxing and MMA does take something back depending on the situation. I have posted MMA/boxing hand traps in fights. In MMA, high level wrestlers, judoka, etc. punch, then clinch to takedown or throw. The irony is I have not seen any video of a CMAist trapping in a fight. OTOH, attempting to chase hands with every punch can get one KO.
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Re: One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:16 pm

Bao wrote:Thanks for sharing. The only thing though is that I wouldn't automatically count in the knees together with the rest of the moment. The knee is a hinge, it must always need to move straight in a track. If the spiraling, rotating movements of the body is translated into the knees, then you will have problems and slowly damage the knees. .


If the feet are rooted like in taiji then, yes, the knees cannot handle too much torque but if one is standing and moving on the balls of the feet like in yiquan and the knees are tracking with the toes then the movement is not detrimental to the knees.
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Re: One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:28 pm

It might be helpful to remember this saying along with many others from a taiji context
is useful to help explain and define faults arising from not having this quality in movement along all the other sayings helping to define skill sets or understand faults.

Normally mentioned this to those I work with to help them understand the fault of clashing, or separating.

In each case one part not moving with the other parts.

While one may derive a meaning outside of this context,
it may not make much sense without the context.
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Re: One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:04 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:My thoughts on one part moves, all parts move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36iPPYN059k

Some inaccuracies in your video:

1. Whole body power can be sequential (kinetic linking). For example, dantian/waist leads the shoulder/hand. It does not mean one is using only "arm power."

CMA, MMA, boxing, etc., use both types of whole body power generation depending on distance, hand (lead or rear) and type of punch (e.g., jab, hook, uppercut, etc). Throwing using sequential, whole body power is found to generate the most power in sports and setting world records (e.g., football, baseball, javelin throw, etc).


Yes, but kinetic linking is not "one part moves, all parts move." And in yiquan we don't push off the back foot. Everything is contained in the body.
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Re: One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Postby GrahamB on Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:16 pm

Without the friction of your foot against the ground, you would not move forward. That is "pushing off".

Physics.
I could be wrong.
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Re: One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:23 pm

GrahamB wrote:Without the friction of your foot against the ground, you would not move forward. That is "pushing off".

Physics.


I lift my knees and sit. I lead with the knee rather than initiating the movement by pushing off the back leg. The front foot slides forward (similar to a falling step) and the back foot releases.

Yiquan.
Last edited by Taste of Death on Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:12 pm

Taste of Death wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:My thoughts on one part moves, all parts move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36iPPYN059k

Some inaccuracies in your video:

1. Whole body power can be sequential (kinetic linking). For example, dantian/waist leads the shoulder/hand. It does not mean one is using only "arm power."

CMA, MMA, boxing, etc., use both types of whole body power generation depending on distance, hand (lead or rear) and type of punch (e.g., jab, hook, uppercut, etc). Throwing using sequential, whole body power is found to generate the most power in sports and setting world records (e.g., football, baseball, javelin throw, etc).


Yes, but kinetic linking is not "one part moves, all parts move." And in yiquan we don't push off the back foot. Everything is contained in the body.

Yes it is per others and Sifu Mizner starting at 2:54, "… The most common two (triggers) would be the yao (waist) region as one or the foot as the other, which means that part initiates. It is the pebble in the pond. The waves propagate through the fluid body to create change in your body, yin-yang differentials, and generate the powers. One part moves, all parts move."

Again, other MAs do both. In boxing/MMA, a standard variation of the lead hook starts with folding the rear kua triggering the whole body to move at the same time—transferring weight to the back foot. Another example is Dempsey's "falling step" punch.
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Re: One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:24 pm

marvin8 wrote:Yes it is per others and Sifu Mizner starting at 2:54, "… The most common two (triggers) would be the yao (waist) region as one or the foot as the other, which means that part initiates. It is the pebble in the pond. The waves propagate through the fluid body to create change in your body, yin-yang differentials, and generate the powers. One part moves, all parts move."

There is no pebble, there is only the pond.
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Re: One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Postby LaoDan on Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:33 pm

Mizner’s video is too muddled for me to get much from it. He seems to be saying that others view the saying as meaning A or B, but that the phrase does not specifically say this or that, so practitioners should discount interpretations A and B. He then proposes his own understanding. But using the logic that he himself uses in the video, then it is also not what he proposed because the phrase also does not say - this triggers that - this is followed by that…

If one favors the “wave” approach to explaining TJQ, then perhaps they would like his explanation, but he does not give sufficient information to convince me to view TJQ through that perspective. I prefer to view TJQ through the perspective of a “properly inflated rubber ball” analogy. When one part of a ball moves, then all parts of the ball move. I agree that there is no pebble, unless there is a better explanation somewhere else to explain this perspective.
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Re: One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:15 am

LaoDan wrote:
If one favors the “wave” approach to explaining TJQ, then perhaps they would like his explanation, but he does not give sufficient information to convince me to view TJQ through that perspective. I prefer to view TJQ through the perspective of a “properly inflated rubber ball” analogy. When one part of a ball moves, then all parts of the ball move. I agree that there is no pebble, unless there is a better explanation somewhere else to explain this perspective.


agree, he does mix things in his explanations.
Guess it's how he views it, using it to describe what "he" feels is happening to those following his method.

Using the wave approach it’s quite easy to see and understand the mechanics of the body in movement, as sequential movements.
Something once made aware of, can be pointed out in most movement.

“ properly inflated rubber ball” analogy can be used to explain movement but does not explain developing the body to act as a “ properly inflated rubber ball“

“inflated “ with what, how, center , etc. not as easy to grasp or develop if someone uses this concept

Regarding “pebble “

substituting
mind "pebble"
body "pond"

In some cases the active “mind” act’s as an initiator, in other's using the passive “no mind” as a receiver.

The wave medium is not the wave and it doesn't make the wave; it merely carries or transports the wave from its source to other locations.

https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/ ... -is-a-Wave
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Re: One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:02 pm

I would say that 'mind' is the pond, and thoughts are the 'pebbles'. :)
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Re: One Part Moves, All Parts Move

Postby Taste of Death on Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:05 pm

Doc Stier wrote:I would say that 'mind' is the pond, and thoughts are the 'pebbles'. :)


One of the few things John Wang and I agree on is that 1-2 is better than 1-2-3 but 1 is better than 1-2. If it all does not happen at once there is a time lag that can be exploited. There should be no need for the pebble which makes what you wrote true in that there should be no thinking involved, therefore no need for the mind either.

New mantra: No thoughts, no mind, no pebble, no pond.

The other side of that is something Sam Tam said. "I hit them three times. The first time is when I hit them. The second time is when they hit the wall. The third time is when they hit the floor." So, maybe 1-2-3 is better than 1.
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