Formosa Neijia wrote: you're shown yourself to be totally impervious to logic and reason.
Well, as far as I can tell, only one of us is ignoring the other person's points and resorting to ad hominem attack, so there's that...
Formosa Neijia wrote: you're shown yourself to be totally impervious to logic and reason.
GrahamB wrote:Guys - I think you need to realise that all these Chen forms you are arguing so passionately about look.... virtually identical.
It's like Catholics and Protestants in the Middle Ages burning each other to death over who is worshiping God the right way. If an Alien landed on earth and tried to get them to explain what the differences between the two ways of worshiping God were.... to him they would be virtually identical.
It's all the same thing! Be more Alien!
;D
And look what you've done now - you've woken Wayne up!!!!
nicklinjm wrote:I have difficulty understanding practitioners who only practice forms who then try and assert that their material is 'best' or most 'authentic'. The primary purpose of these arts was for martial usage - regardless of whether you are practicing old frame, new frame or small frame, surely the main criterion to skill in taiji is whether you can show how the movements work in actual usage??
This was typically the norm in most schools, regardless of the style or system, especially among southern Chinese masters.
Master Chen’s answer had nothing to do with either Chen or Wu styles: My ancestors invented it.
My great grandfather practiced it [translator’s note: This refers to Chen Changxing, who taught Yang Luchan, the creator of Yang Style]. My father practiced it.
I practice it now. . "We do not call it Taiji. We do not have a name for it. You can call it anything you want, I will still practice it the same way I was taught. I don’t care what they put in the name!
I don’t care what they put in the name!"
Chen Fake was certainly not a philosopher. However one might appreciate the profound depth of his perspective. He saw the name as nothing more than a shallow symbol of the object. What Chen Fake learned and taught was Chen Style Taijiquan. The change of the name by others or the views of others will never affect what it is.
Taken all together, given the large, vibrant, and knowledgeable community, it would be impossible for the Yang’s to be teaching one set of drastically watered-down skills to the nobles – the very people who made all these growth and development possible, and teach another, more advanced set to other Han people, whom the Manchurian patrons also know equally well.
nicklinjm wrote:I'm not a Chen style guy, and am totally agnostic about laojia vs xinjia but think there are a few points that might help this thread get back on topic:
1) It's pretty clear from several different sources that Chen tuishou methods were relatively simple back in CFK's time. Not just the Xiang Kai-ran article but also writings of Hong Junsheng and other early students of CFK like Yang Yichen say the same thing, that there were only a couple of main tuishou methods, definitely not 5 or even 9 as found in some modern Chen branches.
Chen Fake taught taijiquan to all in the same way, with no discrimination. He never hid material. Chen Fake’s upright and honourable character was well known in Beijing. Chen Fake often said, “Even if I show someone step by step they have difficulty getting it exactly right, what reason is there to be conservative?” He would answer every question, and explain each action in detail, such as Peng, Lu, Ji, An, how to use [them], and at the same time to do demonstrate physically as well, dozens of times. At that time, most taijiquan teachers in Beijing would start teaching pushing hands straight after students had learnt the form. With Chen Fake, he would teach the Yi Lu, then have the student practice Yi Lu for at least half a year before he would teach Er Lu, and would not teach push hands until later. Chen Fake said, “Pushing hands is the first step towards non-compliant practice, but the student needs to be familiar with Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Cai, Lie, Zhou, Kao and advancing and retreating, and how to use it. There is no point talking about it if a student’s gongfu has not reached the right level.”
At that time, all of my brothers learned taijiquan with Chen Fake, but out of all of them only Yichen really learned well, and went to Chen Fake’s house every day. At that time, of all the early batch of Fake’s taijiquan students, my brother worked the hardest and was the best at taij. Yichen and Chen Fake are similar in character, so Chen liked him very much. I often advised Li Henian to be more like Yichen [in character].
wayne hansen wrote:Love the passage above
Thé 4 supplementary techniques can be taught without Ta Lu
They are in walking 4 hands and most pushing exercises
kenneth fish wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfy7XVSugUU
Du Yuze himself.
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