Doc Stier wrote:Here again, semantics becomes a stumbling block regarding the word 'worship', which is usually reserved for a perceived relationship with God, or a Higher Power, the Creator, and so forth. A more acceptable term for many people, therefore, would be the word 'commemoration'.
Doc Stier wrote:Here again, semantics becomes a stumbling block regarding the word 'worship', which is usually reserved for a perceived relationship with God, or a Higher Power, the Creator, and so forth. A more acceptable term for many people, therefore, would be the word 'commemoration'.
For me, it is always appropriate to commemorate those who have gone before us, with a respectful sense of fond remembrance, whether they were biological family predecessors or were martial art system predecessors, but I don't worship them, per se, as they were mortal beings like we are, not gods.
Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:It may be true that many in East Asia today are semi secularized and that traditions change, but there are still those who carry on the old traditions. Tomorrow, I will be visiting the Nikko Toshogu mausoleum where the first Tokugawa Shogun, Ieyasu, is worshiped to this day as a god head, Tosho Daigongen. The priests there, the current Tokugawa family, and many ordinary citizens travel there to worship and pray to the deity.
Doc Stier wrote:Hi Ian! My comments were directly related to the OP question "What role does ancestor worship have in your practice?", not to the existence or role of ancestor worship in Asian religious traditions.
As such, I clearly stated that I think it is always appropriate to remember our martial arts lineage predecessors, to commemorate and venerate the memory of their lives on the dates their birthdays, display their photos on a school shrine table or other place of honor, and so forth.
However, I personally do not worship my style predecessors in the ways you referred to, since I don't practice religious Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc, so Asian ancestor worship simply isn't a part of my personal training regimen or my teaching curriculum.
I think you simply misread and/or misinterpreted my initial response to the OP question, but no worries. It's all good.
Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Hey Doc,
My apologies for the misunderstanding. In the spirit of the OP, I'll share another anecdote. My first long term MA teacher was well placed in the lineage of our Japanese jujutsu system. After the first decade of training with him, I started to visit other dojos of the same system but of different branches. One of the first things that struck me was the difference in opening the classes. Every other dojo I visited would open with a bow to a picture of the founder Seishiro "Henry" Okazaki. Then a bow to the senior instructors. There was no such image in my home dojo, but we did bow to the American flag! I asked my teacher about this and he said that, as a Christian, he would not bow to an image of the founder. I was a bit taken aback as I never saw it as worship, but rather veneration, just like we all bowed to each other before starting work with a new partner or at the opening or closing of class. But, I have been to dojo in Japan where there is certainly a feeling of connecting with the divine when bowing to the picture of the founders of various systems, and their pictures are usually placed on or over a shrine. I found the different approaches to be really interesting.
meeks wrote:I have framed images of my Shifu (Yang Guotai) who passed away about 10 years ago, and of a well known sketch of Dong Haiquan on the wall of my school or training space. While we don't bow to them at the beginning of class, the pictures are there intentionally to honor my shifu and for the 8 decades of training bagua zhang he carried with him. I am fortunate to have spent time with him and that he took me serious as one of his disciples and the LEAST I can do is put his picture up so my students can see who I hold a reverence for as a powerful influence in my life.
When I am teaching a class, I consider it 'holding space' for my students to train - almost in a ceremonial sense (if you've ever sat in a plant medicine ceremony you'll understand) - you're not just holding a class of "here, let me show you something". You're carrying a lineage of ancestors... and if you are paying attention to the spiritual aspect of your lineage ... do you consider whether or not those ancestors are paying attention to your class right now? That they may be holding some influence in how the class goes, what you're teaching and what you're learning by teaching? Perhaps they're having an influence and the shrine/alter/images are providing a stronger connection for that influence.
Perhaps your ability to teach a class carries a slight "lifting of the veil" that permeates into where those ancestors reside. Perhaps your presence (and skillset in the energetic aspect) IS the cotter pin to the influence of the ancestors.
My teacher had an altar that he showed us verrrry rarely in the room that he slept in. And when his wife passed away she too had a spot on that altar and we honored her when he first placed her photo on there by lighting incense for her and bowing 3x, expressing our gratitude for her (she was an amazing cook and fed us like her own children) and the love she showed us over the years.
I find the practise of altars in mainland China, while not completely exinct, is greatly reduced (perhaps from the cultural revolution?) where they now prefer concrete buildings and neon lights over traditional architecture and spiritual connections.
My first experience with a 'living' altar was a Japanese Aikikai school in North Vancouver I used to train at. You could sense its influence and participation in the training. When I asked the Sensei there he said "the spirit of Aikido" lives in that altar, and he had flown someone in from Japan to hold ceremony to set it up for him. That was a Canadian Aikikai master named Joel Posluns (I hope I spelled it right). That was someone I hold a great degree of respect for as a man that embodied traditional practises in Aikikai. It took me many years to wrap my head around the concept of "spirit of Aikikai" (a path, or way) vs "spirit of the founder" (a man) but now it makes so much sense to me it's almost a palpable concept. So yes, the spirit of Bagua (for example) is something that I also honor in my meditations and prayers, as I do my lineage of Bagua ancestors. My question is "why wouldn't you?". Are we so proud that we can think we don't owe any gratitude to those that cultivated this path before we stepped on it? (rhetorical question).
When you start looking at the spiritual influence of the martial art you embody, you begin to understand that what you are training is just the tip of the iceberg for the potential of what your training is doing for you on your path. Practising martial arts began 5 decades ago for me, and in the beginning it was "I don't want to get my ass kicked" or "I want to be an amazing martial artist". Now I see what it has really done for me is to help me understand myself, as a path to self mastery, self discovery, and clearing away ancestral and karmic trauma that we inherited. "I am a leaf on the wind" is my answer when people ask me what is bagua or how it has helped my life. It has helped me find myself and allowed me to be authentic. Now my practise of bagua has transformed into self mastery and self discovery... determining where the "I" or "me" ends and where the universe or "God's creation" begins. You'll find your Bagua in there (or whatever style you embody), and I'm pretty confident your ancestors are watching you fumble your way through that doorway too. They can't open it for you but their hints are always ready to be heard.
I don't post often, but when I do I feel I spoke too much...
(十五) 追求無的境界
Pursuing the State of Nothingness
盤架子,無論是養生練法還是才技主擊練法,都要追求一種"無"的境界。要什麼都沒有,思想 上不追求什麼。只是松、散、圓,沒有目標,沒有對象。毫無迎敵之意。練得什麼都沒有"全身 透空" "周身合適"。
In form practices, regardless wether it is for health or for fighting, the aim is to achieve “nothingness.”
With nothing to want, and no goal to pursue. Just look to be Soong (relaxed), “dispersed”, and round.
No goals and no objectives. Do not hold the idea of defeating an enemy.
Practice such that “the body is as if ‘porous’ and empty” and “whole body in comfort”.
windwalker wrote:Every time I practice, his presence is there....at the end of the practice
I thank him
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