Appledog wrote:origami_itto wrote:One thing you simply seem incapable of understanding is that I train Yang Style Taijiquan.
Not Chen family boxing, not praying mantis, not hung gar, not MMA. Taijiquan and push hands.
I would relish the opportunity to learn from you by playing push hands and feeling first had the superiority of your training methods for the task.
Until then I'm going to keep doing what has been delivering steady and progressive results for years. The fact that it makes you cry is just gravy.
The push hands in chen family boxing is exactly the same as the push hands in yang style taijiquan (from what I have seen) except that they have a few more types of push hands. Wu style is the same too except they seem to have many more types as well (and somewhat different than chen style).
But in any case if we are talking about the basic kinds of push hands, for me it's less about what you can do than if you know how to share it. For me, while getting tossed around endlessly has value (invest in loss, sure,) I liken it to trying to learn the form by following along in a park or community center. Been there, done that. I prefer a different kind of instruction now. It's not 'non-competitive' push hands, it's competitive push hands in a non-competitive way. Not sure if that makes sense. Where the teacher is careful not to overwhelm you and can actually lead you in a manner of speaking. I actually think it is more efficient. I also realize that it requires a special relationship between the players who trust each other and understand "the rules" and when ego and competitiveness become involved it can be less about learning and more about getting one in on the opponent.
I've actually pushed hands with someone who literally just did karate in the guise of tai chi (lets just say he had a very interesting form), and after punching me in the stomach he didn't want to play anymore because I was beneath him. I am not complaining about the karate. If I complain then I am saying that my tai chi cannot even beat his karate in the guise of tai chi. Meaning that my tai chi cannot even beat real tai chi in push hands. It makes me feel down because it is difficult to find someone who will play in the manner I want them to, superior or not. It is my dream someday to be able to handle all sorts of attacks in a peaceful manner so that I can bring this kind of friendship, sharing and trust to push hands players everywhere.
Once again, lol.
The outer shape and pattern is meaningless.
Chen family boxing may have inspired Yang Taijiquan, but they are different things. Everybody wants to conflate everything as if you can just train one way and do it all. Despite what they tell us about being off by a millimeter at the start leading to being miles off track as you progress. All kind of ideas backfilled into the systems and compared against the inferior arts that are easier to understand. The path is an inch wide and a mile deep. You don't get there studying fifty different systems.
Chen is great, and you can find decent Chen pretty much everywhere. I just don't generally find it to be what I'm looking for. There's only been one Chen player I've ever touched where I felt like I should follow up and try to learn a few things from them, and that was due to their softness, which Chen players tend to lack.
As far as training partners, I don't care. They can bring whatever they want to bring and I will either deal with it with Taijiquan or I will be pushed. I tend to frustrate the aggressive folks because I don't fight back enough for them. I don't care. I want clean Jin. Pushing someone is a secondary concern.
Generally, they will follow my lead and we have a productive time. I have found this to be the case in every opportunity I have had to push. Just get out there, pick a place to be consistently and start telling people you'll be there. Hold the space and collect the stragglers and eventually you'll have a thriving community of pushers.
The freestyle skills are built on the cooperative drills, and playing those drills non-cooperatively. Sure you can keep a pattern, sure you can surprise someone with a technique, but can you apply a jin to someone who knows it is coming and knows how to counter it? Can you do it slowly and methodically without trying to catch them by surprise? That's the real skill building. It's hard to find somebody willing to do the "boring" work, but come to Florida, bro, we will do single hand circles all weekend and you'll love it.
Or spend the $200 and fly down to Tampa in November. Or Melbourne, FL any time, I can put you up for the weekend and we'll train. That's a standing offer to anybody who wants to come down. I won't pay your way but I'll take care of you while you're here.
Because that's what the fuck I'm about. Not being rude to people comparing notes, not trying to convince people they're wrong and I'm right, it all comes down to what's between our hands. You're better, fantastic, teach me something. I'm better, okay I guess I'll drop some knowledge. All the playground bullshit just reeks of insecurity.
I dunno I'm rambling again. For real, come visit. We'll train, visit the finest restaurants, I can introduce you to a lovely young lady or two, it'll be fun.