Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

[D_Glenn]

Jinbao is using the triangle stepping in nearly all those applications, exactly as he describes it. It’s subtle, probably not what you think Triangle stepping is.
So I disagree that it would get you clocked.

More often than not, when a student asks a question, Jinbao lights up and says “aha, there’s actually a Song that answers that.” Then he sings it.

(Shi Jidong’s songs are closer to the Yin Fu songs, but still not quite as much detail or specificity. But they’re all we have in print. So they’ll have to do.)

Song #22 is about it:
出手招招因人动，封闭对方最有功，步从三角转移灵，手取十字利化功
Roughly: the outgoing hand (chushou) should draw out the opponent to make them move. Then seal off the opponent’s movements. Your steps following the Triangle to quickly change. Use the “Cross Shape” hands to make the transforming work.

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Like Edededed, I mistook your post as implying that one doesn’t have to do Circle Walking for long periods of time. Your response to him cleared that up. My apologies

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[wayne hansen]

Triangle circle it’s all a matter of degree
Decided by your opponent

[HotSoup]

So you're saying I was originally correct saying Changquan, which is northern, when I was told I was wrong and it was muslim. Thank You
Not a Long Fist guy beyond believing it was Northern, and it being practiced in Hebei and Beijing. Thought it originated in Shaolin, of that I am not sure, but apparently it was heavily influenced BY shaolin Kung Fu

So telling me Changquan is specifically muslin and not associate with Shaolin is then incorrect, thank you

What I’m saying is that you have no clue what you’re talking about Producing another incorrect statement doesn’t make the first one correct, no matter how much you’d like it to be so. History of CMA is complex enough to even bother with such naïveté.

[Formosa Neijia]

I don't think you will see the "triangle step" as you described it very much in actual sparring or fights. That's OK; most baguazhang people I talk to or have met don't have a lot of practical experience using the art combatively. Triangle stepping as a two-step process may seem to make sense in theory, but it will get you clocked by anyone attacking with real speed and strength. It's too slow. ...

As you know, baguazhang can go inside or outside in responding to an attack. Even when going outside, baguazhang stepping is more stepping by the opponent, just off the vector of attack. With either gate, though, the stepping is not really in a triangle.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAIR1Fp2iM&t=199s

First, BGZ isn't the only art to do this by far. Most of the styles I've studied have this. It's qixingbu seven star step or tian gan (big dipper) seven star step 天罡七星步

We do this in grand ancestor white crane and most southern styles have an entire form or two devoted to it. On a side note, this was basic training back in the 80's and 90'sand now i can barely find an article about it on the internet. So much for the information age.

Second, i agree it's too slow as done by most people for the exact reason you mentioned: lack of any real sparring. The initial strike has to happen as you step offline, waiting until the step is complete makes it a two-step process and will get you clocked. That's why I suggest doing what i did and take a serious look at something like pekiti tersia kali where they have this down to a science because they spar all the time. Another side note: that guy above has some of the clearest Mandarin I've heard and it's such a pleasure not to have to pick through those heavy northern accents. thanks for the video share.

People used the Shaolin name for comercial purpose. ...In other words, people (incude myself) may use the name "Shaolin" even if their CMA have nothing to do with it.

That's not totally true. Some of the northern mantis systems see themselves as depository of knowledge from shaolin that was taken outside the temple to preserve it. Case in point is the 18 luohan qigong set which is a direct descendant of the muscle change classic. One of my teachers who also did Han Qin-tang's long fist system tied his material directly back to shaolin via his mantis and his 108 muscle change classic system and his 18 luohan qigong. He was pretty adamant about the connection.

Just putting this out there: circle walking for me has been nearly a total waste of time. I get nothing out of it despite years wasted on it. But the progression of 8 brocades -- muscle change-- washing marrow -- 18 luohan qigong really resonates (word intentionally used) with me. Again, that shaolin connection can have a serious impact on your training if your teachers are saying its important and most of mine did.

[GrahamB]

To play Devil's advocate:

Isn't that Bagua "weaving" footwork in the above video just a copy of boxing footwork? Mike Tyson does it better and he's never trained Bagua or any CMA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9CRQXQFc5A

[Doc Stier]

Just putting this out there: circle walking for me has been nearly a total waste of time. I get nothing out of it despite years wasted on it.

Yeah, that sucks. I have a few students who have had similar experiences with circle walking, despite their grueling 10-15 minute practice sessions a couple of times per week over many years time. Sadly, life is often filled with disappointment.

[windwalker]

I don't think you will see the "triangle step" as you described it very much in actual sparring or fights. That's OK; most baguazhang people I talk to or have met don't have a lot of practical experience using the art combatively. Triangle stepping as a two-step process may seem to make sense in theory, but it will get you clocked by anyone attacking with real speed and strength. It's too slow. ...

As you know, baguazhang can go inside or outside in responding to an attack. Even when going outside, baguazhang stepping is more stepping by the opponent, just off the vector of attack. With either gate, though, the stepping is not really in a triangle.


First, BGZ isn't the only art to do this by far. Most of the styles I've studied have this. It's qixingbu seven star step or tian gan (big dipper) seven star step 天罡七星步


We do this in grand ancestor white crane and most southern styles have an entire form or two devoted to it. On a side note, this was basic training back in the 80's and 90'sand now i can barely find an article about it on the internet. So much for the information age.

Second, i agree it's too slow as done by most people for the exact reason you mentioned: lack of any real sparring. The initial strike has to happen as you step offline, waiting until the step is complete makes it a two-step process and will get you clocked. That's why I suggest doing what i did and take a serious look at something like pekiti tersia kali where they have this down to a science because they spar all the time. Another side note: that guy above has some of the clearest Mandarin I've heard and it's such a pleasure not to have to pick through those heavy northern accents. thanks for the video share.

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Very interesting agree


In Tibetan White Crane,,,we practiced what was called "triangle step"

among other foot work patterns...practiced into 1000s of reps, and then used in sparring sessions



stepping off line...



basic practice "triangle step" in and out...

sparring practice and movement


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3xO5RgcMIU&t=12s

[D_Glenn]

Formosa,
In the Baguazhang I practice, the Seven Star stepping is simply the position of the feet in a more forward facing Stance used in the Dragon System. All the other animal systems use a horse type stance where both toes point in the same direction.



If you’re left foot is in front then it’s on the line between Alkaid and Mizar. Your right foot is on the line between Merak and Dubhe. To step forward, the image of the constellation is flipped and your front foot is picked up and turned to the angle of Merak and Dubhe, while the back foot passes close by the ankle of your front foot and is moved forward to the position between Alkaid and Mizar.

It’s that simple.

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[GrahamB]

Now that we've all agreed that circle walking isn't "martial".... It's obvious to me that circle walking is a basic shamanic practice that has existed for thousands of years - often around a bonfire.

The place where shamanism has survived and thrived the longest seems to be Mongolia.

Where did Dong Hai Chuan and Yin Fu go collecting taxes for 9 years? Mongolia.



Bagua's Deer horn knives = representation of fire wheel = representation of shaman's drum?



Warrior God NeZha:




Shaman from Siberia:

[GrahamB]

On the plus side, this makes Bagua undoubtedly the oldest of all martial arts, and therefore the best. Because oldest = best.

[johnwang]

Just putting this out there: circle walking for me has been nearly a total waste of time.

I use the circle walking for arm drag. I always move my back foot first. I assume most Bagua people move their leading foot first.

I'll have a workshop this coming Sunday. The circle walking arm dragging will be the 1st technique that I will teach. The reason that I treat this as an important principle because most people don't feel comfortable to be dragged in circle. Whether they may resist or yield, their responds would be wrong in both situations.

[D_Glenn]

Tom,
”You adhere to the rules in solo practices, so that in a fight, where rules don’t work, you will still have some semblance of skill.”

I think we’re on the same page. I guess in writing one always has to take into account that the reader is always going to take everything literally and at face value. But we probably need to continue to always add in the above disclaimer when discussing solo training principles.



A) these songs were written in the late 1800s so modern Chinese doesn’t always work. And more importantly B) the number of syllables in a word is the most important deciding factor, so in this case 2 syllables is all that could be used.

***
Of course the triangle stepping looks different in application but the guidelines work with any step- forge step, advancing step, retreating step, and even backstepping, like you can see in the bear application.

Here’s a few more songs from Joseph Crandall’s translations of Shi Jidong’s 48 Bagua Songs:

“8. Xie Chu Cheng Ru - Diagonal Leaving, Straight Entering:

With footsteps firm and stable, seek adroit movement. By advancing, retreating, turning, and shifting, seek out the enemy's path. Walking follows the triangle. The toes grip the ground. Diagonal leaving, straight entering, is wonderful and unlimited.

9. Xu Jin - Continuous Advancing:

Develop an offensive posture, the enemy can not move back. Continue advancing with strikes that are difficult to evade. Step and advance the body, then step to the front. The hands, feet, and body must be one and arrive together.

10. Lian Zhui - Continuous Chasing:

I advance. If the enemy retreats, I must follow. One step or two steps, I am continuously stepping to follow. Closely press the enemy so there is no way for him to flee. Continuously advance, victory comes in one step.”

Diagonal leaving, straight entering; Straight leaving, diagonal entering

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[D_Glenn]

Doc, you to have to be sure to always add the sarcasm tag lol

Just putting this out there: circle walking for me has been nearly a total waste of time. I get nothing out of it despite years wasted on it.

Yeah, that sucks. [sarcasm] I have a few students who have had similar experiences with circle walking, despite their grueling 10-15 minute practice sessions a couple of times per week over many years time. Sadly, life is often filled with disappointment. [/sarcasm]

.

[windwalker]

Just putting this out there: circle walking for me has been nearly a total waste of time.

I use the 3 steps half circle walking for arm dragging. But I always move my back foot first. I assume most Bagua people move their leading foot first.

Some styles use circle walking, an intrinsic part of their method and strategies,
with out it much of the method wouldn't work..


2 styles I've practiced used the circle as an entry point.

"(Mei Hua Tang Lang (Plum Flower Praying Mantis Boxing) and Tibetan White Crane.

Each style also practiced on what are called plum flower post....

Either foot moved according to the step, ending positions being defined in terms of yin / negative ,,,or yang / positive ...


TBWC

showing 2 distinct modes, Crane, and Gorilla "ape" ....the crane being in what would be called a yin / negative, gorilla yang / positive

[D_Glenn]

Graham,
I don’t mean to question anything that good ole Phillips espouses but it’s possible that the origin is a lot more simple and mundane.

Dong Haichuan grew up in a village where he had to push the millstone around and around to grind the grains into flour.



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