Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Thu May 12, 2022 11:14 am

Tom, lmao, ooops I just realized that the fault in miscommunication lies entirely on me, because I initially wrote “In a fight…”
:-\


Technically speaking though, in YSB we train stepping on the square, 90 degree angles, where in actual usage that degree of angle shrinks down.

Sorry for all the grief :-[

But, IMO, a good discussion did come about from it

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Last edited by D_Glenn on Thu May 12, 2022 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby GrahamB on Thu May 12, 2022 11:17 am

D_Glenn,

Not really, Phillips, like everyone else who does Bagua ignores the Mongolian connection. It's my pet theory, and I'm sticking to it. 8-) 9 years is a long time!
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Thu May 12, 2022 11:27 am

It’s great to explore theories. And I wouldn’t have known about that ritual if you hadn’t posted it. The teacup dancing from Mongolia is definitely a thing, but that probably made it into cultural China hundreds of years before DHC was born.

One issue with that theory is that Dong Haichuan was living in, and teaching the Prince and his guards for many years before they started doing tax collection in Northern China and Mongolia And he was doing Circle Walking (Zhuan Zhang/ Turning Palms) well before he ended up in Beijing.

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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby jbb73 on Thu May 12, 2022 11:46 am

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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby johnwang on Thu May 12, 2022 12:15 pm

One reason of circle walking for me is to line up my back foot with my opponent's both feet. When that happen, I'lll move in and attack.

If my opponent

- doesn't turn with me, 1 step may be enough.
- turns with me, I may need many steps.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu May 12, 2022 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby Doc Stier on Thu May 12, 2022 12:47 pm

windwalker wrote:Some styles use circle walking as an intrinsic part of their method and strategies,
without it much of the method wouldn't work.

That's definitely true of the older Sun Style which I learned. Circle walking methods are taught for use in actual fighting applications, not merely as a training method focused on other agenda priorities. As always, ymmv.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby Doc Stier on Thu May 12, 2022 1:02 pm

GrahamB wrote:Now that we've all agreed that circle walking isn't "martial".... It's obvious to me that circle walking is a basic shamanic practice that has existed for thousands of years - often around a bonfire.

The place where shamanism has survived and thrived the longest seems to be Mongolia.

Where did Dong Hai Chuan and Yin Fu go collecting taxes for 9 years? Mongolia.



Bagua's Deer horn knives = representation of fire wheel = representation of shaman's drum?

Image

Warrior God NeZha:

Image


Shaman from Siberia:

Image

I am an Oglala Lakota American Indian with extensive experience in the shamanic Wicasa Wakan practices indigenous to our people. All traditional dances are done in a leftward moving counterclockwise circle. Although war dances have a 'martial' quality inherent to the purpose of the dance, most dances do not, but all are performed with 'circle walking' movement.

Beautiful deer horn knives with the eight trigrams incorporated into the design. Very nice! 8-)
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Thu May 12, 2022 1:08 pm

With ‘Scissor Thigh Stepping’ one’s own feet are tracking too close to each other. It’s great for continually squeezing and releasing the sacrum in order to get the Daoist Yoga benefits, but if someone came and attacked you while you were circling walking you would have to quickly change into a wider stance. That, in a nutshell is the reason why we say it’s not applicable.

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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby windwalker on Thu May 12, 2022 1:33 pm

Doc Stier wrote:
windwalker wrote:Some styles use circle walking as an intrinsic part of their method and strategies,
without it much of the method wouldn't work.

That's definitely true of the older Sun Style which I learned.
Circle walking methods are taught for use in actual fighting applications, not merely as a training method focused on other agenda priorities. As always, ymmv.


Everything we practiced was for "fighting"

In the TWC we had a stepping training running around the circle coupled with some interesting stepping actions,,,
called "flying crane".

No longer an active practitioner of the style.

My taiji style as practiced from my teacher has a lot of inner - bagua influence which only lately have I come to see
in the outer movements...

He started bagua in 1945, Beijing.
Practiced for 17yrs before meeting his last teacher, a taiji master not named....

Never asked him about who his bagau teacher might have been, he mentioned he was undefeated until meeting the taiji master who later would be his future taiji teacher. .

There were others in his group who still practiced bagua.
Interesting enough one of them showed me a square stepping pattern...
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 12, 2022 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby GrahamB on Thu May 12, 2022 1:38 pm

Doc Stier wrote:I am an Oglala Lakota American Indian with extensive experience in the shamanic Wicasa Wakan practices indigenous to our people. All traditional dances are done in a leftward moving counterclockwise circle. Although war dances have a 'martial' quality inherent to the purpose of the dance, most dances do not, but all are performed with 'circle walking' movement.

Beautiful deer horn knives with the eight trigrams incorporated into the design. Very nice! 8-)


Didn't know that!

That's one of the things with the shamanic circle walking/spirit dances - they all walk a circle no matter what culture they originated from because the same 'nature' is the source and inspiration and it's the same no matter what part of the world you are in - Siberia, North America, Mongolia - these arts derive not from man, but from nature.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby windwalker on Thu May 12, 2022 2:15 pm

Tom wrote:
windwalker wrote:
My taiji style as practiced from my teacher has a lot of inner - bagua influence which only lately have I come to see
in the outer movements...

He started bagua in 1945, Beijing.
Practiced for 17yrs before meeting his last teacher, a taiji master not named....

Never asked him about who his bagau teacher might have been, he mentioned he was undefeated until meeting the taiji master who later would be his future taiji teacher. .

. . . .


IIRC from conversations in China, Zhang Yongliang was close to a well-known Yin Style baguazhang teacher in Beijing, someone of roughly the same generation as Zhang. That of course doesn't mean Zhang's baguazhang was from the Yin school, since most people in Beijing who had real skill at baguazhang in those troubled times probably knew each other.


It was said that he was close to this teacher, teaching him some of his taiji practice


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOK3HUj75Gs&t=6s


Quite correct a lot of the high level practitioners in Beijing knew or know each other...
Those knowing Zhang Shifu, respecting his request to keep his anonymity,
he preferring to remain quite about his work known only by the MA community there..
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 12, 2022 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby edededed on Thu May 12, 2022 6:13 pm

Tom wrote:
edededed wrote:
Tom wrote:But it is interesting that the 36 Songs and 48 Methods attributed to Dong Haichuan's direct verbal instructions do not provide any real detail on circle-walking


I thought that the first few songs of the 36 are instructions for circle-walking (specifically the pushing mill posture).


Tom wrote:Postural and stepping details are indeed described in the first few of the 36 Songs (see example below). But the turning of a circle for an extended period of time is not described as a foundational or basic practice anywhere in the 36 Songs or 48 Methods that I can find (two different translations, one from Tom Bisio and one from Andrea Falk). In particular, the use of the curving step is described in a number of different places, but in connection with actual usage (for example, responding to a straight-line or angled attack). Circle-walking as a discrete foundational practice is not mentioned.


ededed wrote:Although one can argue that the word "circle walking" does not preface the descriptions, I am curious to ask, what do you think they describe if not pointers on circle-walking?
. . . .


Exactly that: pointers. As I wrote above, "(t)he turning of a circle for an extended period of time is not described as a foundational or basic practice anywhere in the 36 Songs or 48 Methods . . . " Andrea Falk says it more clearly in "A Shadow Fallen on Plum Blossoms" (2017), her thoroughly-researched line-by-line comparative (between different versions) translation of the 36 Songs and 48 Methods:

"Are the verses legitimate words from Dong Haichuan and the first-generation masters? I think so. They are not particularly organized in a methodological way, from basic to advanced, from simple to complex, or from structure to techniques to tactics. There are duplications in content between the 36 and 48 verses. The traditional learning is working things out for yourself, not having them presented in too orderly a fashion. There are 'note-takers' and 'not-note-takers' (I have piles of notebooks), and Zeng [Zenqi, student of Yin Fu on whose notes the 36 Songs and 48 Methods are based] sounds like a 'note-taker'. The verses often refer to fighting against weapons, as if the weapons involved were not firearms, which suggests they are based on early oral instructions.

The verses give specific instructions for the structure, feelings, techniques, applications, tactics, use of power, and training methods of baguazhang. They do not contain any non-practical theory. They are specific enough to describe the unique flavor of baguazhang and general enough that most instructions apply to all its branches. The verses do not give away any secrets. They do not describe circle-walking in any detail. They remind you of the posture and movement details, and tell you some methods and tactics that work if you have done your circlewalking and achieved rooted stepping attached through your body. They do not describe specific techniques. They basically say, ' do what I've taught you, keep to it, trust it, and it will work'. It is said that if you have done baguazhang for awhile you will understand the 36 verses, and that you will need more time before you understand the 48 verses, because the 36 are more about structure and the 48 are more about tactics. No one could understand the real secret of baguazhang by reading these verses. They are unique in that they were written not to spread, or even teach, but to remind. They are meant as memory aids to those within the circle."
[bold added for emphasis]

So Ed, I'm not saying that circle-walking isn't fundamental to baguazhang. I've done a fair amount of baguazhang of different traditions over the past 23 years, and the one practice from that art I've found the most valuable is turning the circle for extended periods of time. It's the first thing I was ever taught in baguazhang. And while the pointers to circlewalking in the 36 verses with different emphases by ten different very competent teachers, there are so many more details and methods within turning the circle that are simply absent from the 36 verses but taught by those teachers in person. These additional details have been absolutely essential to whatever small amount of internal connection and power I've developed from the circlewalking. This kind of work makes turning the circle into a deeply transformative practice. And those practice details and transformative effect are not described by the 36 verses and 48 methods.

It's just an opinion. ;)


Yeah, the songs work well as reminders (mnemonics) for practice, but do lack details and methods, as you say.
Any "secrets" referred to in the songs will be "hidden in plain sight" without the details/methods, and of course helpful visual demonstration.
Still, the songs were originally secret and not shared, so perhaps there is much value in the mnemonics themselves.

It's also interesting that 1st few songs seem to describe circle walking, but only for the tuimozhang posture (bagua's most famous pose), but none of the other palms.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby edededed on Thu May 12, 2022 6:18 pm

D_Glenn wrote:More often than not, when a student asks a question, Jinbao lights up and says “aha, there’s actually a Song that answers that.” Then he sings it.


Sings - as in, are there pitches/tones to the songs, too?! :D (Might make the songs easier to remember, actually...)

BTW - curious about the 8 animal styles - have you learned all/most of them? Are they like completely different styles (shenfa, bufa, shoufa, etc.)? Is it quite difficult (even confusing) to transition from one style to another? The video showing He Jinbao demonstrate them was quite interesting, but I wanted to hear from a practitioner, and I know you've been doing this for a while!
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby Formosa Neijia on Thu May 12, 2022 6:22 pm

Tom wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:In a fight you use Triangle stepping- either a right side up triangle (step horizontally then enter diagonally), or an upside down triangle (step diagonally then enter horizontally).


Devlin, how you described triangle stepping above seems to me to be a two-step process, e.g., step off-line then step to enter. This most definitely is too slow at combat speed and is not what He Jinbao is doing in the video clip I posted yesterday. It's not what he demonstrates or explains at seminars. If I'm misunderstanding your description I quoted above, then by all means please clarify what you're trying to describe....Those attributes then emerge when responding to an attack in the manner Wayne describes--the attack will show the parameters of how to step. In the previously-posted video where HJB demonstrates applications from the different animal systems of YSB, he will take a single step and turn the body to engage/strike/entangle/throw/kick even before a second step is taken. That is what I see, which doesn't jibe with triangle stepping as a two-step process the way I understood your description above.


Yes, this is how many BGZ people do it and it's fundamentally wrong. This will never work, as you have pointed out a couple of times. Nor is Wayne correct on this. He's wrong and it shows a weakness of this style of training. You don't WAIT for the opponent to move then do a two-step -- you move first. YOU TAKE THE ANGLE YOURSELF, not let him move and then angle off. You attack on the first step off the centerline. Again, the Filipino arts do this better than anyone but i can never get anyone to even engage that point. They actually have diagrams you follow, not "songs" that no one can apparently translate or do correctly but it shows the same thing.
Image
If you don't train to take the angle first yourself, then your reflexes and stepping will always be too slow. You get one beat (1, not 1-2) to make it work. You only get that by training to attack.
Here are two examples from Ma Wei-qi BGZ:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uNJU7eNszPg
This is direct stepping and punching with the forward foot on the initial angle of the triangle.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/DvoV5hNdd3w
This is direct stepping and attacking at the same time with the back leg. This is not as good as the first one.

A large part that is missing from the discussion is that the sanjiaobu/qixingbu is just the beginning. You eventually put them together and then you have the diamond and the hourglass. This is where how to apply this stepping becomes clearer. The reason this makes it clearer is that the real application on the second strike is also a diagonal, not a straight side move as the triangle stepping would suggest.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby edededed on Thu May 12, 2022 6:31 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:Yes, the lianwuzhang are practiced by some northern mantis groups and include a two-man form such as the one you showed above.


Hi, D. Did you learn the lianwuzhang, too? Curious if you felt it was also similar to baguazhang in specific ways. (Since I don't know the set, it just kind of feels like "random longfist/mantis form" to me ;D )

I think generally, any northern CMA will have influence from "Shaolin" - or rather, just classical northern CMA. So of course doing some of that will lead to some insights.

In terms of bagua, the connection seems clearer when looking at (some) Yin styles (which often have clear gongbu/mabu/xubu, for example), but less so in other styles - but then you can compare the bagua styles and see how they changed/relate.
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