What is push hands?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: What is push hands?

Postby windwalker on Fri May 13, 2022 7:59 am

Appledog wrote:[
It took me a long time to understand why it was so difficult to deal with some of the push hands players that use tricks like this and that was mainly because I was accepting the tricks. If someone has their hand on your neck (for example) it is already too late.

As they place their hand on your neck you must immediately perform rollback against his elbow; if you don't understand what I mean by this consider 'monk ropes the tiger' from the classing jingwu form (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ-6Ehk6ZBo). There are a multitude of ways to do this; ex. carry the basket on the arm. If I was bored I would simply reach out for his neck in mirror image to see what he would do in response.

What do you think would happen? Do you think he would follow the correct, orthodox movement, or would he shut down the attempt to deal with the attack in an unusual way?

If he chooses some unusual way such as yielding in a place his opponent didn't attack, like something out of the 36 stratagems, how can the opponent ever really learn to feel the 8 energies?


;D

Until you post a clip of "your" work dealing with what "you" write about its hard to say...

I know what would happen :)
was there, as others were...some quite skilled....

Everything was allowed, and tried....

Our line of taiji corresponds

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man,


(十)內勁是神意氣的化合,不是神意氣的集中
(Ten) Neijin Is Harmonizing Shen Yi Qi, and Not Concentrating Shen Yi Qi
編者按:汪永泉老師對內勁兒的本質及其和力的區別作了專門講述。這是非常重要的。有些人沒 有弄清楚,誤把力當成勁兒,走入歧途。

Editor: Teacher Wang Yongquan said that there are fundamental differences between Neijin (內 勁/ internal refined force) and other practices.
This is a very important point. Some people do not make the distinction clear, and confuse force as Jin, going down the wrong path."


The focus may be a little different among other lines....

If he chooses some unusual way such as yielding in a place his opponent didn't attack, like something out of the 36 stratagems, how can the opponent ever really learn to feel the 8 energies?


You among others seem to think this is some kind of sparring, or a match....instead of "training"
The training alone is allowing the other to feel whats happening so they can work on it....

In a match, or an "attack" there is no chance given that would allow the other to "change" ,,,
It's done before their physical movement, in accordance with their "intended" movement, its very fast..

There'er aspects that many here write about, normally every time its shown by video what they "write" about people tend to lose their minds

kinda funny ;D
Last edited by windwalker on Fri May 13, 2022 9:35 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby windwalker on Fri May 13, 2022 8:23 am

Appledog wrote:
It took me a long time to understand why it was so difficult to deal with some of the push hands players that use tricks like this and that was mainly because I was accepting the tricks. If someone has their hand on your neck (for example) it is already too late. As they place their hand on your neck you must immediately perform rollback against his elbow;



;D

ok, ....you'er thinking no one tried that there ?

What is shown was an everyday training...it's how he explained his taiji...by allowing others to feel it....
Even among the locals there, he didn't''t explain much..

If someone was asked "do you understand, and they answered yes.
The expectation was that they would then do what they said was understood...

If it was not correct, they would practice more until they could demo hands on their "understanding"
Last edited by windwalker on Fri May 13, 2022 10:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby Appledog on Fri May 13, 2022 12:46 pm

windwalker wrote:
Appledog wrote:As they place their hand on your neck you must immediately perform rollback against his elbow; What do you think would happen? Do you think he would follow the correct, orthodox movement, or would he shut down the attempt to deal with the attack in an unusual way?


Until you post a clip of "your" work dealing with what "you" write about its hard to say...

I know what would happen :)


Then answer the question.

Anyways, if Wang Yong-quan was Yang Cheng-Fu's student, then surely his opinion on these matters is subordinate to Yang Cheng-Fu's. After studying yang style and the writings on it to some depth I'm familiar with the writings but I don't quite see how harmonizing versus concentrating neijin is relevant here, other than to comment on yet another way some people have fallen off the beaten path into taiji heresy.

windwalker wrote:The focus may be a little different among other lines....

You among others seem to think this is some kind of sparring, or a match....instead of "training"
The training alone is allowing the other to feel whats happening so they can work on it....

In a match, or an "attack" there is no chance given that would allow the other to "change" ,,,
It's done before their physical movement, in accordance with their "intended" movement, its very fast..

There'er aspects that many here write about, normally every time its shown by video what they "write" about people tend to lose their minds

kinda funny ;D


If you think I meant that this is some kind of sparring you didn't understand my contention. The problem is that from the standpoint of efficiency of teaching and learning, what is shown in the demo clips you've posted is about as inefficient as it gets. I highly suspect that the guy has decent skills, trained in a much more orthodox way than is shown in the clips. I suspect that if I pushed hands with him and tried what I said, he would not let me do it -- and therein lies the problem -- when someone reaches in like that rollback against the elbow is the standard, orthodox response -- it comes straight out of standard fixed step pushing hands iirc. And yet I suspect that he would bully me with his internal strength in some other way to maintain his 'advantage'. And what I would come away with, as a novice, is that it is incorrect to try and rollback against such a posture. I would have actually come away with incorrect training. That bothers me.

If the goal is to train each other and share and learn, then why not just do standard, plain, fixed step push hands? Especially if you are teaching someone of wildly different skill level, as shown in the clip?

I guess it boils down to this:

windwalker wrote:If someone was asked "do you understand, and they answered yes.
The expectation was that they would then do what they said was understood...

If it was not correct, they would practice more until they could demo hands on their "understanding"


How then would they practice, in order to gain enough skill that they could counter this done to them, or perform a similar demo?
Last edited by Appledog on Fri May 13, 2022 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby windwalker on Fri May 13, 2022 1:25 pm

Appledog wrote:How then would they practice, in order to gain enough skill that they could counter this done to them, or perform a similar demo?


;D

by practice...and more practice....different teachers have different ways...

that was his way :)

Wasn't a demo,,,a clip of practice, that I've had for some 20yrs now only posting recently feeling some might
be interested in my teachers work....

Some from RSF have visited over the years,,,asked them to respect his preferred anonymity
and not share anything on line, which they have :)

Something no longer necessary should they want to share,

Then answer the question


It ain't the Burger King ,,,its not "have it your way" :)
why not post a clip of your work...
It would help in understanding the level of an answer you might understand.


However one of my classmates, still likes to meet and engage with people



The main quality one notices when pushing with Zhao, aside from his startlingly lightening speed, is how quickly he changes in order to never use force. He never feels fear, is always calm and never sweats or feels tired. He is always “empty.”

This emptiness is actually full of awareness. Zhao’s posture is completely erect. No stance or footwork is perceptible, but internally where it can’t be seen there is tremendous form. Zhao never overextends or gives up his center. He maintains his composure, rolls with everything he is given and uses that roll back to recoil into wherever his partner is most open, stiff and unguarded. The term “relaxed” does not do justice to his extraordinary level of composure and readiness.

He will be returning to China soon, so this will be a great opportunity to work with him.

https://www.jingying.org/special_events ... hhands.htm


He's pretty funny, also likes engaging with others....and speaks English
Ever make it out to china, might be an interesting person to meet up with..
Last edited by windwalker on Fri May 13, 2022 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby windwalker on Fri May 13, 2022 1:53 pm

I suspect that if I pushed hands with him and tried what I said, he would not let me do it -- and therein lies the problem --


It’s not that he would not let you do it, it’s that you couldn’t do it.
being there you would understand why.

Without knowing your level of practice, there is no amount of writing that would lead you to an understanding that you might feel you already have.

that’s the problem.

Many of those there and his local students had many years in other practices before meeting him.
Some visiting, students from some of the more famous teachers in the area.

He grew up in a time during the cultural revolution where anonymity,
for some was the norm.

In Beijing, people knew of him . Hidden in plain sight.

Allowed him to Practice his craft, and teach those
following his practice.
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby Appledog on Fri May 13, 2022 2:09 pm

windwalker wrote:
I suspect that if I pushed hands with him and tried what I said, he would not let me do it -- and therein lies the problem --


It’s not that he would not let you do it, it’s that you couldn’t do it.
being there you would understand why.


Well it's no big deal, there are plenty of people who can toss me around. It's just that I would prefer to be tossed around by someone who does something vaguely similar to what I do so that I can try and grasp something and improve myself. By your account Master Zhao for example basically made up his own system. In which, the standard kinds of things I've been taught to do would apparently be shut down. I see that as a negative -- It would require me to completely change everything I do. At this point in my life there is no pressing need to switch systems, so even though he is better than me I don't have any desire to learn from him at all. There's always someone better than you -- most often, and yes, funnily enough, they often do other arts than what you practice. But it's nothing mysterious, really, it's not like this art is impossible to learn if you spend enough time grinding away... after all he did it -- A guy that never learned the form did it. In just 12 years. By all accounts you did it too. That gives me hope for the future :)
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby windwalker on Fri May 13, 2022 2:32 pm

It would require me to completely change everything I do.



Which Zhang, Shifu a bagua practitioner also had to do, and did do after being beat by his teacher...

Master Zhang, and his Taichi master had a contest to compare skills. Master Zhang, lost in such a way that he knew that this was what he was looking for in his own martial path, Master Zhang, decided to follow his Taichi Master right after the match.

At first the master did not want to teach him, but after awhile agreed when he saw the sincerity of Master Zhang, He agreed to teach him with the following conditions:

1. tell no one that I am your teacher.
2. do not practice other things. If you do I will know.
3. do not push with anyone for 3 years.



I was introduced to him through one of his students in the Bay Area,,,who had a ;D push hands group,,,
Taiji can be taught in a number of ways,,,for some push hands is the way, and method,,,for others maybe not...

After meeting him, I too understood that this was what I felt taiji should be, and dropped everything else I thought I knew...

and followed him....going to Beijing for months at at a time,,,3 hrs in the morning, 3 in the after noon..
Leaving to go back to the US he would mention a certain point such as,,,"your not straight". which I would work on
for the yr before going back....if I was correct he would mention something else rinse - repeat :P

just his way :)

A meeting in Taiwan a while back

Teacher Chen, agreed smiling in his warm friendly way.

When we touched hands both of us did not move, able to sense each others movements inside. Understanding this, we both laughed and broke contact. His students quite surprised and mystified as to what happened when there was no outer movement.

We both laughed and shared some tea, and lunch afterwards.



No amount of explanation would allow his students to understand why their teacher didn't move....

He passed away in 2015,,,cancer :-\
his web site for those interested
https://journeytoemptiness.com/2017/01/ ... yongliang/




As for training and path,,,all have different paths that "they" choose...
A matter of knowing what one is looking for and really wants...

Best of luck on your path...
Last edited by windwalker on Fri May 13, 2022 3:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby johnwang on Fri May 13, 2022 2:36 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I used the tricks the teacher uses in this clip on my student last night to similar effect
My student thought it was hilarious

That move is called "Bai 掰 - Chin pull".

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Re: What is push hands?

Postby Appledog on Fri May 13, 2022 4:57 pm

windwalker wrote:
It would require me to completely change everything I do.


Which Zhang, Shifu a bagua practitioner also had to do, and did do after being beat by his teacher...


It's a different situation -- he was doing bagua, I'm already doing tai chi. But it's a bit of a moot point, we can't really rely on this information because we will never know who his teachers were. Back in his time there was not as much information available either. And there are other issues surrounding the cultural revolution that I don't have the space to write here, maybe over tea later. Today however things are very, very different. It is almost certain that whatever he was taught is available somewhere, somehow. The tradeoff is that everyone is lazy and finding people who want to seriously practice is harder. I would say that there are not enough students left today to preserve the existing lineages properly... Depending where you go and who you learn from, you can get stuffed with information. It can be a blessing or a curse depending if you feel it is a responsibility or a burden. It's a problem that occupies my mind.

windwalker wrote:3 hrs in the morning, 3 in the after noon.. Leaving to go back to the US he would mention a certain point such as,,,"your not straight". which I would work on


(therefore) I think this is the real secret, whatever you have this is where you got it from and not some kind of inexplicable method that is shrouded in mystery and anonymity. You practiced hard and you were able to accept corrections (not everyone is able to take or understand corrections like this). How many people today can repeat your practice schedule without altering their life in order to do so as a dedicated professional? Six hours a day; it's a job at that point.

And, that's very good. Certainly if one really wants the skills and really wants to chase this dream seriously he should associate himself with people like you. You have to make friends with likeminded people in this art, no man is an island.
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby windwalker on Fri May 13, 2022 7:22 pm

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Re: What is push hands?

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 14, 2022 4:00 am

John that is t what I was talking about
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby Formosa Neijia on Sat May 14, 2022 10:12 am

windwalker wrote:Cool, maybe you learned something :)
of course no video ? :P


windwalker wrote:It ain't the Burger King ,,,its not "have it your way" :)
why not post a clip of your work...
It would help in understanding the level of an answer you might understand.


windwalker wrote:Until you post a clip of "your" work dealing with what "you" write about its hard to say...


You know, for someone that has never posted a single pic or clip of their own practice, you sure don't mind cajoling others into providing you with clips. How about you share your own stuff? Why has that not happened yet? Or can you not make all this hocus-pocus actually work yourself?
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby johnwang on Sat May 14, 2022 11:24 am

wayne hansen wrote:John that is t what I was talking about

In another thread, people compare Taiji and SC. If we compare the folling 2 clips we can see some difference.

In the

- Taiji clip, his opponent's left arm can wrap around his waist or under hook his right shoulder. His opponent's right hand can also punch on his face.
- SC clip, "倒手(Dao Shou) - reverse arm drag" is used to move himself into the side door. This way, his opponent's back hand will have no threaten to him.

IMO, not to let your opponent to have 2 free arms is not fully considered in this Taiji clip, also noy fully considered in the Taiji push hand.

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Re: What is push hands?

Postby johnwang on Sat May 14, 2022 11:35 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:never posted a single pic or clip of their own practice, ...

There are PRO and CON for sharing personal video online.

PRO: 100 years from today, people may still remember you because your online video.
CON: If you post a clip online with error in it, you will never have any chance to correct it.

A: Here is one of my video to share.
B: You hand and leg are not fully coordinated.
C: Your power generation is weak.
D: Your balance is a bit off.
E: Your body doesn't have a good structure.
F: You are not a good looking guy.
A: I just took down my video.
G: It's too late. I have already downloaded your video. I have proof that your CMA is bad.
A: :-\
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby windwalker on Sat May 14, 2022 11:54 am

johnwang wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:John that is t what I was talking about

In another thread, people compare Taiji and SC. If we compare the folling 2 clips we can see some difference.

In the

- Taiji clip, his opponent's left arm can wrap around his waist or under hook his right shoulder. His opponent's right hand can also punch on his face.
- SC clip, "倒手(Dao Shou) - reverse arm drag" is used to move himself into the side door. This way, his opponent's back hand will have no threaten to him.

IMO, not to let your opponent to have 2 free arms is not fully considered in this Taiji clip, also noy fully considered in the Taiji push hand.

Image




mmm, its not an opponent its a student ;D
He's going over some movements....

He has interacted with many who "talk" about what they can or could do
never really managing to do it, when meeting ,,,in the US and in Beijing....

Much of what has been mentioned is not really possible....
more so with "Zhao" funny guy, does enjoy interacting with others "fighting"

You are correct I can see it was maybe a mistake trying to show some of his
approach to whats called push hands. :P

Zhao says that any student can attain skill like him within one year of training under him.
Zhao wants to see progress and see it right away.
He shows everything - how to connect to the hips and spine and to never, ever, ever use force or strength.
The students who have come regularly have made remarkable progress within a year, as promised.

The main quality one notices when pushing with Zhao, aside from his startlingly lightening speed, is how quickly he changes in order to never use force. He never feels fear, is always calm and never sweats or feels tired. He is always “empty.”

https://www.jingying.org/special_events ... hhands.htm

for those interested,

He has a group in Beijing....
although due to the virus might not be a good time for travel.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat May 14, 2022 12:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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