marvin8 wrote:Per Chen Kung (in [url=https://www.amazon.com/Tai-Sensing-Hands-Chen-Kungs/dp/1892515156]Tai Chi Sensing Hands[/url]), tingjin is listening through the sense of touch. The above videos are examples of listening from the clinch with touch. However, one can listen without requiring touch (e.g., outside of bridging or grappling range), offering no resistance.
If one listens, adheres and sticks to their opponent's energy before making contact, they can defeat their opponent from a superior position—which is often the case in a well-rounded style fighter vs a grappler.
汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man, http://facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition
(五) 揉手要有正確的目的
(Five) “Rubbing Hand” (Push Hand) Must Be Done With Correct Intent
練習揉手要有正確的目的。揉手又名推手。揉手的目的是為了校正練習者對拳術理論不正確的 理解,發現並糾正學習拳架時的不正確的練法,以及不正確的揉手方法,避免出現偏差而走入 吱途。有些人對揉手沒有正確的理解,認為揉手只是為了一爭高下,因而在練習時,拳友之間 往往容易產生誤會和摩擦,甚至傷害身體。這種偏差是由於缺少教養或違反武德,而在揉手中 摻雜了非太極拳的拆手、散打,以及反關節擒拿等招術,使揉手形成了較力的緣故。
Practicing “Rubbing Hand” must be done with correct intent. Rubbing Hand is commonly known as Push Hand.
The purpose of Rubbing Hand is for the practitioners to validate their understanding of the martial art principles.
練習揉手主要是為了"懂勁兒"為了練成真正的太極功夫,而不是為了爭強好勝,以致不擇手 段。我的老師楊澄甫說,揉手時,要用太極拳的功夫贏人,才能讓對方口服心服。
The prime reason for practicing Rubbing Hand is to “Understand Jin” and learn the true Tai Chi Gong Fu, and not to see who is stronger or who would win, even using unsportsman like techniques or with bad intention.
My teacher Yang Chengfu said, “If you win over your opponent using true Tai Chi Chuan Gong Fu at Rubbing Hand, then you will get their respect from their heart and mouth.” {translator: that is, otherwise even if you win, then they fear you, but may not respect you. }
Master Wang uses internal chi energy rather than external muscular force to move his partner. He must first be sensitive and feel his partner's center and then absorb any force directed towards him before emitting chi outwards.
Hands are primarily antennae to sense another person's energy, not an instrument to push.
The energy comes from the ground through Master Wang's center and trunk.
wayne hansen wrote:As I have said many times
Tai chi is passed on literally from hand to hand
If your teacher dosent have it you can’t get it
marvin8 wrote:First, tingjin is a developed type of skill, which means that you need to practice in certain ways for a certain amount of time. You won’t have it until you have developed it.
Per Chen Kung - Tai Chi Sensing Hands[/url][/i]), tingjin is listening through the sense of touch. The above videos are examples of listening from the clinch with touch. However, one can listen without requiring touch (e.g., outside of bridging or grappling range), offering no resistance.
If one listens, adheres and sticks to their opponent's energy before making contact, they can defeat their opponent from a superior position—which is often the case in a well-rounded style fighter vs a grappler.
Trip wrote:marvin8 wrote:First, tingjin is a developed type of skill, which means that you need to practice in certain ways for a certain amount of time. You won’t have it until you have developed it.
Trip wrote:marvin8 wrote:Per Chen Kung (in Tai Chi Sensing Hands), tingjin is listening through the sense of touch. The above videos are examples of listening from the clinch with touch. However, one can listen without requiring touch (e.g., outside of bridging or grappling range), offering no resistance.
If one listens, adheres and sticks to their opponent's energy before making contact, they can defeat their opponent from a superior position—which is often the case in a well-rounded style fighter vs a grappler.
But, it is not the well rounded fighter or grappler who is making the claim that they are using Taiji ting jin.
It is only you saying/implying they are using "Tai Chi Sensing Hands."
I'm not saying what they do doesn't work. but though similar, What they do to off balance their opponent works.
But that doesn't mean they are doing Taiji skills.
Trip wrote:If you were to ask them I think many of them would probably say they are doing and what their mind is focusing on, is something else.
Trip wrote:An example is when the champion UFC guy was off balanced by Adam Mizner is was wowed. He didn't say that's what I do too.
Trip wrote:
An example is when the champion UFC guy was off balanced by Adam Mizner is was wowed. He didn't say that's what I do too.
marvin8 wrote:
Simply, one can either listen by touching or without touching.
Steve James wrote:
Hmm, do y'all think that ting (tingjin) is so unique to tcc that it doesn't exist outside of it?
Does it exist in bagua?
.
windwalker wrote:marvin8 wrote:Simply, one can either listen by touching or without touching.
How do you know this....
How do you know the "listening" you speak of is the same what is meant by those in the "taiji"
community
What do you feel "tingjin" is used to listen/understand
Steve James wrote:What do you feel "tingjin" is used to listen/understand
Specifically? an opponent's direction and strength. I could explain it with a diagram showing a force redirected on a tangent from a circle.
There's an old book by Yearning K Chen, student of Tian Zhaolin, that has plenty of such diagrams.
But, obviously, the purpose is to do whatever tcc does. Fill in the blanks with whatever you use it for.
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