zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby CheapBastid on Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:42 am

I've seen two versions of the order of the characters:
zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随
conversely
zhan 沾 lian 连(t'ieh?) nian 黏 sui 随

The first is referenced several places, mainly well referenced here: http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_DaShouGe/arti_TJ_DaShouGe.html.
The second I am told was from Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo's translation of an original version of 郑曼青 Cheng Man-ch'ing first book in Chinese.

Anyone have a clearer idea of which order is more 'correct'?
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby origami_itto on Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:48 am

Perhaps a greater question is, does the order matter? Who can make an argument either way?
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby origami_itto on Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:05 am

CheapBastid wrote:
The first is referenced several places, mainly well referenced here: http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_DaShouGe/arti_TJ_DaShouGe.html.
The second I am told was from Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo's translation of an original version of 郑曼青 Cheng Man-ch'ing first book in Chinese.

Anyone have a clearer idea of which order is more 'correct'?


That is an excellent article, he does a great job of explaining them and what order they should be trained and developed. That order is the reverse of the usual listing because, of course, the Chinese like putting the best stuff first, don't they?

I thought that I had that book but can't seem to put my hands on it. I think he mentions them when discussing his push hands exercises and the order he presented them being strange seems to trigger a flitter of memory.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby origami_itto on Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:09 am

Okay I DID find it on page 103 of Yang Chengfu's "Essence and Applications of Taijiquan", ghost written by Cheng Man Ching, and in that he states that the postures peng, lu, ji, and an are, respectively, stick, join, adhere, and follow.

Honestly I think that's a bunch of caca, but who am I to argue with Yang Chengfu and Cheng Man Ching, they're dead, boring conversationalists.

The other listing is more accurate IMHO.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby CheapBastid on Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:12 am

does the order matter


It does if one wants to have a wall-hanging of the characters, or if one has a 'friendship' card with the characters on it....

To be clearer: I had the 1st order and was chided, so I had a second card printed with the 2nd order. I've since kept both in my pocket so I can confuse those who choose to criticize, but I've recently heard of a 3rd party who ranted and raved when seeing one of the cards when I wasn't there so I thought I'd dig deeper.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby CheapBastid on Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:14 am

origami_itto wrote:"Essence and Applications of Taijiquan", ghost written by Cheng Man Ching


I suppose I should be clearer, I am in love with the stanza from the Song of Push Hands (Da Shou Ge) and that is the specific order I'm interested in.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby origami_itto on Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:23 am

CheapBastid wrote:
does the order matter


It does if one wants to have a wall-hanging of the characters, or if one has a 'friendship' card with the characters on it....

To be clearer: I had the 1st order and was chided, so I had a second card printed with the 2nd order. I've since kept both in my pocket so I can confuse those who choose to criticize, but I've recently heard of a 3rd party who ranted and raved when seeing one of the cards when I wasn't there so I thought I'd dig deeper.


The first order is correct. Stick (Zhan), adhere (nian), join (lian), follow(sui), without letting go (diu) and without resistance(ding).

It's backwards in order of skill. First follow the opponent's incoming energy to prevent it landing on you, then follow their retreating energy to harmonize with it, that allows you to adhere to their every movement, and then you can upset their balance and force them to rely on you to stay upright, at which point you have full control of their body.

The order cheng man ching presented in the books was a teaching order arranged based on how he thought the ideas were best expressed in grasp sparrow's tail, the "chief hand" of the art.

So... depending on what you are trying to express there, either could work, I guess, but the first version makes more sense as a caligraphy because that's the specific verbage used in the classics and yang family manuals that predated Cheng Fu and Man Ching by quite a bit and were written by far better exponents.

But I would love to hear your chider's argument.
Last edited by origami_itto on Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby windwalker on Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:22 pm

There is this example

Tigger warning: :o watch at your own risk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmaMliUGuJA&t=7s


粘黏連隨
[4] STICK, ADHERE, CONNECT / JOIN, AND FOLLOW

粘者提上拔髙之謂也
黏者留戀繾綣之謂也
連者舍己無離之謂也
隨者彼走此應之謂也
要知人之知覺運動非明粘黏連隨不可斯粘黏連隨之功夫亦甚細矣
Sticking means to lift up high.
Adhering means to stay and be attached.
Connecting means to let go of yourself and not separate from the opponent.
Following means to follow him wherever he goes.
If you want to move with awareness and yet you do not understand sticking, adhering, connecting, and following, it will be beyond your reach, for it is a very subtle skill.



https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/


Another example of .stick, adhere , join, follow
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby origami_itto on Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:08 am

windwalker wrote:There is this example

Tigger warning: :o watch at your own risk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmaMliUGuJA&t=7s


粘黏連隨
[4] STICK, ADHERE, CONNECT / JOIN, AND FOLLOW

粘者提上拔髙之謂也
黏者留戀繾綣之謂也
連者舍己無離之謂也
隨者彼走此應之謂也
要知人之知覺運動非明粘黏連隨不可斯粘黏連隨之功夫亦甚細矣
Sticking means to lift up high.
Adhering means to stay and be attached.
Connecting means to let go of yourself and not separate from the opponent.
Following means to follow him wherever he goes.
If you want to move with awareness and yet you do not understand sticking, adhering, connecting, and following, it will be beyond your reach, for it is a very subtle skill.



https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/


Another example of .stick, adhere , join, follow


So an interesting error I discovered was letting go while still maintaining contact. Running away from the energy instead of transforming and redirecting it. In the manuals I believe they refer to it as "thinness". Mizner sort of demonstrates the difference at one point there with a collapsed peng. If you resist, superior force will crush you, if you run away, they'll chase you into a corner.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Doc Stier on Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:12 am

In the early, pre-1930 version of Yang Style TCC which I learned, we were taught to Attach, Adhere, Join, and Follow.

In applications, this means making initial contact to form a bridge (Attach), while creating a sticky connection at the point(s) of contact (Adhere), from which to Join the opponent's movement in any direction, and Follow their changes of position, direction of movement, speed, power, and technique with a soft, unbroken connection until they are destabilized and imbalanced.

At that point, the opponent will be vulnerable to swift, sudden countermeasures, since all fighting styles depend on a stabile stance and balanced body control to effectively execute both defensive and offensive techniques. When their stability and balance are compromised, they will usually be unable to recover quickly enough to successful defend against countermeasures applied with full power and extreme speed at close quarters.

Those who have developed the highest skill level will be able to achieve that result at initial attaching contact by immediately detecting the location of an opponent's center of gravity and any errors or faults in their structural alignment, thus quickly enabling a simultaneous defense and counter in one continuous action, which the opponent is unable to prevent or resist. ymmv.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Steve James on Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:21 am

origami_itto wrote:Okay I DID find it on page 103 of Yang Chengfu's "Essence and Applications of Taijiquan", ghost written by Cheng Man Ching, and in that he states that the postures peng, lu, ji, and an are, respectively, stick, join, adhere, and follow.

Honestly I think that's a bunch of caca, but who am I to argue with Yang Chengfu and Cheng Man Ching, they're dead, boring conversationalists.

The other listing is more accurate IMHO.


Hmm, you must be referring to Louis Swaim's translation. He's skeptical of CMC's editorial contributions because (like him) Cheng was a scholar meant to "touch up" YCF's earlier text. The phs and applications sections, Louis feels, are more representative of what YCF would have practiced than the prior explanatory sections.

I agree with Doc Stier's description zhan, nian, lian, sui in application. I also agree with YCF's description. They're the same. How about the hua, na, da, fa formula? It not that "hua" = "zhan" = simply the posture "peng." But, peng is not lu. To accomplish "hua," one needs to "zhan" and "peng" is where that starts, no? Anyway, my point is that neither YCF nor CMC would make simple equations between postures and concepts.

Fwiw, the argument that CMC edited the work came from Yang Zhenji (who was famous for his 'middle frame'). It also reminded me that Yang Zhenduo (Yang Jun's grand dad) was the model for the PRC's Yang style book that came out in the 80s. It's because he looked like YCF.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Steve James on Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:39 am

What do y'all think of his explanation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XuN3v7Ic2c
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby windwalker on Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:08 am

very similar to Adam’s demo

Adam, talks about them having to stick to him, this teacher’s focus seems to be on sticking to them..

Verbiage a little different outcome the same....

Another way stick energy can be trained in line with the what, we train, and use...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry7CcxaD1Jc
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:16 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Bao on Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:14 pm

Steve James wrote:What do y'all think of his explanation?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XuN3v7Ic2c


Don't really care about how he explains it. Everyone explains those things differently. Better to watch what somebody does. In the first few "attempts", Liang directs his student's limb over his centerline, making him fall straight forward over his toes. It's very easy to do, no real sticking skill is necessary. Especially not if someone holds out a stiff limb.

So the question is if he really shows what he speaks about. When it comes to "sticking", you need a partner/opponent in movement. If he moves and continue to move, then you can really show (or practice) the subtleties of following, sticking and directing. Here in this clip I see no real sticking skill, so what's the point caring about his explanation?


@WW, interesting video.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby marvin8 on Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:40 pm

Steve James wrote:I agree with Doc Stier's description zhan, nian, lian, sui in application. I also agree with YCF's description. They're the same. How about the hua, na, da, fa formula? It not that "hua" = "zhan" = simply the posture "peng." But, peng is not lu. To accomplish "hua," one needs to "zhan" and "peng" is where that starts, no? Anyway, my point is that neither YCF nor CMC would make simple equations between postures and concepts.

attributes/skills = movements
zhan = peng, ward off
nian = lu, roll back
lian = ji, push
sui = an, press

In this demo, Wang Peisheng shows push hands skills without touch, "This is done by attacking his mind. I pointed here and it confused him:"

Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opXJ9gxVQmw&t=3m8s

Similarly in BJ Penn vs Lyoto Machida, Machida:

1. Zhan — controls and pressures with push/pull (peng/lu) movement 2. Nian — extends arms (peng) and adheres, as Penn reacts by rolling back (lu) 3. Lian — continues to join, as Penn shifts forward (ji) 4. Sui — remains relaxed, lures and follows Penn's incoming force, then issues (fa) foot sweep and presses down (an):

Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdvOfCz6_tk&t=9m23s

marvin8 wrote:In BJ Penn vs Lyoto Machida, Machida:

1. controls distance with push/pull footwork, then circles left luring (yin) Penn to turn and follow (control/na) 2. hand fights and listens (ting) for Penn to weight the back foot 3. neutralizes (hua) incoming force by issuing (fa) foot sweep and pulling down:
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