charlie_cambridge wrote:We don't recommend training the shen/upper dantian until at least 5-10 years under an experienced teacher training a solid basis in the middle dantian first. There are some practices that train the upper dantian fairly early but they are risky (look up "meditation psychosis")
Jing > Qi > Shen correspond to lower, middle, upper dantian as I understand it. Most of the things we train in the first 10 years of taiji relate to the Jing and might not even scratch the surface of the Qi, much less the Shen.
As an example, my understanding is that the ability to feel your own heartbeat (the loudest internal pressure in the body not counting obvious external pressures like in the foot from all your body weight shifting) is still on the level of Jing, and even the heat sensors (to notice the minor difference in temperature when someone moves within a meter of you, very clearly so even with eyes closed/before they touch you in push hands) is still mostly on the level of the body/Jing or maybe the lowest most superficial level of barely scratching the "qi"
As another example, the throwing people around with elastic force (the Jin) at its basic level is just alignment and a certain motor control, very basic Jing level and not at all a high level skill like some people seem to think. It has nothing to do with the Qi which is much subtler, and we believe most old Chinese teachers who talk about "using the Qi" in that context are just hiding the real info because the student is not an inner school student.
So trying to do anything with the Shen before deepening the awareness and training those basic "Jing" level things is probably pure imagination and not at all helpful.
We advocate training at the edge of our awareness wherever that is, not the obvious body movement (which Patrick would call "level zero"/not even doing taiji at all, that's just moving the limbs around) but also not too far beyond our current awareness that we're just making stuff up in our head. Best to train at the level of subtlety we can barely detect (something real) with effort and concentration
Quigga wrote:Imo you can get quite far with Zen, grounding and rooting, prayer and heart opening, stillness and navel gazing. Though everything one does in training ultimately has the goal to increase flow.
Jing Qi Shen - in my limited experience; where does a waterfall start or stop, and then: where does a salmon stop climbing?
Ideally on my plate, roasted in butter and garlic :-D
windwalker wrote:charlie_cambridge wrote:We don't recommend training the shen/upper dantian until at least 5-10 years under an experienced teacher training a solid basis in the middle dantian first. There are some practices that train the upper dantian fairly early but they are risky (look up "meditation psychosis")
Jing > Qi > Shen correspond to lower, middle, upper dantian as I understand it. Most of the things we train in the first 10 years of taiji relate to the Jing and might not even scratch the surface of the Qi, much less the Shen.
As an example, my understanding is that the ability to feel your own heartbeat (the loudest internal pressure in the body not counting obvious external pressures like in the foot from all your body weight shifting) is still on the level of Jing, and even the heat sensors (to notice the minor difference in temperature when someone moves within a meter of you, very clearly so even with eyes closed/before they touch you in push hands) is still mostly on the level of the body/Jing or maybe the lowest most superficial level of barely scratching the "qi"
As another example, the throwing people around with elastic force (the Jin) at its basic level is just alignment and a certain motor control, very basic Jing level and not at all a high level skill like some people seem to think. It has nothing to do with the Qi which is much subtler, and we believe most old Chinese teachers who talk about "using the Qi" in that context are just hiding the real info because the student is not an inner school student.
So trying to do anything with the Shen before deepening the awareness and training those basic "Jing" level things is probably pure imagination and not at all helpful.
We advocate training at the edge of our awareness wherever that is, not the obvious body movement (which Patrick would call "level zero"/not even doing taiji at all, that's just moving the limbs around) but also not too far beyond our current awareness that we're just making stuff up in our head. Best to train at the level of subtlety we can barely detect (something real) with effort and concentration
Can you do, have felt or show examples of your understanding
charlie_cambridge wrote:
Hi windwalker,
Thanks for checking out my site.
Not sure how I can show example of how I can feel my own heartbeat, other than if you followed our practice for a month you might be able to hear your own too and it should be pretty clear when it happens.
For the basic elastic force we do a few minutes of simple exercises like that at the end of each class from day one. Can show you that in 3 minutes
if you're ever in the Boston area, not in a free sparring contest but as a simple controlled exercise/drill I can show you the quality of my touch. Or you can look up any of PK's senior students mostly in EU, they can more or less all consistently do the same basic things to some level: https://patrickkellytaiji.com/worldwideschools.html
.For the basic elastic force we do a few minutes of simple exercises like that at the end of each class from day one.
Can show you that in 3 minutes
windwalker wrote:charlie_cambridge wrote:
Hi windwalker,
Thanks for checking out my site.
Not sure how I can show example of how I can feel my own heartbeat, other than if you followed our practice for a month you might be able to hear your own too and it should be pretty clear when it happens.
For the basic elastic force we do a few minutes of simple exercises like that at the end of each class from day one. Can show you that in 3 minutes
if you're ever in the Boston area, not in a free sparring contest but as a simple controlled exercise/drill I can show you the quality of my touch. Or you can look up any of PK's senior students mostly in EU, they can more or less all consistently do the same basic things to some level: https://patrickkellytaiji.com/worldwideschools.html
In my own work based on my teachers work,
what is talked/written about is a reality.
The use of "Qi" and "Shen" quite clear
The method maybe not so clear
Yes it does to take awhile...
I asked this because many write about things either they can't do, have not felt, or only exists in their minds...
When presented with examples of it,,,often they mock it,,maybe not understanding its what they just wrote about...
nice post BTW
https://journeytoemptiness.com/2021/02/07/volley-jin-2/
Details some of my teachers work and mine....For the basic elastic force we do a few minutes of simple exercises like that at the end of each class from day one.
Can show you that in 3 minutes
In reading and looking at some of the clips of "basic elastic" force not some thing we use or focus on....
seems different....
cheers.
To be clear my posting is in the spirit of sharing experiences
Enjoy reading about and discussing the work
Master Huang's comment to PK was that when you see someone demonstrate that "external qi" (no touch push) you should ask if they can do it to an inanimate object like a feather. Most will not be able to, because there is often a heavy component of subconscious suggestion involved.
自己的意氣是不是通出體外了,要問對方。在初級階段,與對方一搭手,對方感到不過,就說 明內氣達到對方身上了。以後經過學練,逐步能"聽"、"問"、"拿"、
"放"用意氣發人,進行技 擊。
To find out whether your Yi and Qi are projected outside your body, you may ask your opponent. When you first study and touch hand with your opponent, they may feel uncomfortable.
Thus it is clear that the Internal Qi has reached their body. After you practice and improve, then you can use “listen, ask, seize, and let go” (Ting, Wen, Na, Fang) and use Yi and Qi to 發 (Fa, “explode,” i.e. Fajin) as the basis of your fighting skills.
The qi is real of course and people who can do this have a much better grasp of it than I do at the moment, but more often than not there is also a component of suggestion involved.
windwalker wrote:The qi is real of course and people who can do this have a much better grasp of it than I do at the moment, but more often than not there is also a component of suggestion involved.
Kinda my point....If "you" can't do it... you may not really understand what you've mentioned...
This too is tested...
Some speculate there may be some psychological compliance by the students, or un voiced expectations elicited by the teacher. The only way one would know is to find someone in the practice and to experience or not, first hand.
https://journeytoemptiness.com/2021/03/ ... y-jin-3-0/
any way, as mentioned very interesting post..
The qi is real of course and people who can do this have a much better grasp of it than I do at the moment, but more often than not there is also a component of suggestion involved.
PK felt this from Chee Soo early in his training (anecdote in Infinite Dao, knocked everyone else down and made PK wobble though he was able to remain standing, felt the wave of "external qi" for sure) but claimed that after 15 yrs training with Master Huang this sort of thing does not work on him anymore.
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