cloudz wrote:
yea.. so I wanted to throw this up here as I've gotten into a couple of responses around the idea and use of power/ strength in tai chi chuan.
in one recent thread a poster pointed out how one of the US branches taught extension in form postures that brought tension and what I would further describe as tensile strength.
This is an example of the power pushing method as passed down by Yang Sau Cheung son of Yang Cheng Fu.
This should really leave no doubt that training for and using power is part of the traditional method.
I would contest that whilst it's still a matter of balance with the softer defensive skills; part of that defence and in particular offence is predicated on developing a certain kind of strength/ power.
One idea of how this misconception was formed is the taking out of context of certain sayings. As well the teaching of CMC, perhaps inadvertently. YCF most likely didn't teach a relatively short term student this method. It's questionable how many disciples he even taught this as it's more or less stayed in one branch of the family system - he seems to have kept it for his son and that makes sense given the nature of cultural hierarchy and family systems/ businesses..
CMC was spreading his soft looking form at the height of the hippy era; "relax" was the perfect fit, even though it's not a good map to anything in TCC literature. I'm not saying it has no place, but I certainly think in some quarters it's over emphasised.
Neither do you come across this disdainfulness and rejection of strength in other IMA systems; again I think tai chi people over the years have caught on and ran with something taken out of context.
When you look at Chen systems, you can see also strength and power is there. When I watch Chen Zhonghua for example you can just see it come through. Lot's of examples. Stories about stone weights in Chen village. Chen Zhiqiang doing moving step grappling looks strong and issues with strong power. The diverting power is/ becomes far less external motions and an internal affair when you get up close and personal ie. clinch ranges.
Wu style through CTH also is not formed out of 'relaxation' and avoiding tensile strength or strength/ power training.
To not be manipulated into compromising positions your connection needs to remain firm and strong. There's a place for letting go of connection or strength and that's the other side.. However you should IMO work from the base and fundamental of connected strength, over the other way round.. All tai chi postures have this fundamental connected strength to begin with anyway. And you need both heaviness and lightness. Where the emphasis can sometimes become too much on heaviness.
cloudz wrote:CMC was spreading his soft looking form at the height of the hippy era; "relax" was the perfect fit, even though it's not a good map to anything in TCC literature. I'm not saying it has no place, but I certainly think in some quarters it's over emphasised.
Neither do you come across this disdainfulness and rejection of strength in other IMA systems; again I think tai chi people over the years have caught on and ran with something taken out of context.
origami_itto wrote:I want to clarify though that he's not using muscles in that. I mean, yes, he's using muscle to keep his posture because that's how skeletons work, but he's not putting the strength of his muscles against the strength of their muscles.
robert wrote:ZMQ pushing. I like the push at 0:30, ZMQ uses ward off to push the guy and his arm doesn't collapse, it's a good example of jin. It's also clear that he's not using his "shoulder" (deltoid) to push, his upper arm is extended when he starts to push. The same thing is shown at 3:06 where he pushes Robert Smith, and again at 3:09.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSYPOhSgiis
1. “Yang Lu Chan’s fajin was empty, leaving the opponent not knowing what happened or how the jin was released. His jin was so perfected as to be called mysterious.”
2. “Yang Ban Hou’s fajin was SUDDEN, like lightning without rain, emerging from nowhere with the sounds of «Pa!». One fajin would send the opponent out many zhang ( 1 zhang = 3.3 meters). His jin would leave people in pain and injured.”
3. “Yang Jien Hou would use the lightest of touch, his sticking energy was so high that people could not disconnect, then they would be suddenly released like an arrow from a bow.”
4. “Yang Shao Hou’s jin was ever spontaneous and song to the extreme, fast beyond compare. His body skills were mysterious and treacherous like a ghost appearing and reappearing, fooling his opponents so they would have no idea what was happening or how to defend themselves until they had fallen to his jin before even knowing it.”
5. “Yang Chen Fu’s fajin was powerful with great sudden dantien force. Before he would fa there was a deep intention; when he would fa it was like Guang Gong taking off a head with a single stroke…”
6. “Wu Hui Chuan used song elastic energy preferring to use just a little jin to send his opponents out, he did not lose face as a student of the Yang family. His students could produce long jin, both song and sunk, not bad.”
7. “Cui Yi Shi was skilled in fajin both song and sunk. Before he would fa he would inhale one time and use the elastic jin. His jin was song and springy, propelling his opponent away. On release the jin would cause the opponent to release a sound from the mouth as the wind was knocked from them. This is the kung fu of the qi striking the qi.”
8. “Li Xiang Yan in his youth studied and trained deeply in long fist, after which he followed Yang Feng Hou taijiquan and achieved great gong li. He was dedicated to study and practice and achieved jin that was full and hard, penetrating deep inside the opponent. Later he bowed to Yang Chen Fu as his teacher.”
9. “Dong Ying Jie liked to use Rou Cou Jin, pressuring his opponent from side to side, forward and back until they fell defeated.”
10. “Zheng Man Qing would use light touch and clean sticking energy, entering close with his body before firing the opponent out with jin. He was small but had kung fu and courage and was skilled at penetrating the defense of his opponents.”
11. “Tian Zhao Lin’s kung fu was soft and penetrating, breaking his opponents as they were knocked down, amongst other skills.”
12. “I myself Li Ya Xuan use many strange changes, making it difficult to follow. The jin is fast like lighting. I don’t like to just play sticking and circling.”
Bao wrote:Well, Taiji jin can have many different expressions. I agree that it must be understood by physical transmission. You need to feel it.
I like this text, from Li Yaxuan. This version is translated from Thai by Adam Mizner with assistance, so I would rather try to find a translation directly from Chinese, but still it's not the most advanced theory.
You can this as an article on the HME website. I am not eager to give them more "link juice", but it's easy to google up.
"I suspect Robert W. Smith understood the problem - "Westerners do not want to learn Tai Chi, they want to teach it."
windwalker wrote:Or have felt it, allowing one to see it, and understand it in others....
But at the same time, if nobody taught anybody until they were "ready", then there would be no Tai Chi in the world.
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