WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

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WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

Postby origami_itto on Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:13 am

So I'm familiar with a 9 palace walking pattern from bagua, and the Yang 40 chapters contains a description of the 8 gates in the 9 palace arrangement and seems to hint at a greater significance.

I found this stepping pattern attributed to both Wudang and Wu style taijiquan.

Do any of you have any more insight into the 9 palaces in taijiquan?

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Re: WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

Postby robert on Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:21 am

I don't know anything about Wu/Wudang nine palace stepping, but Chen Xin's book The Illustrated Canon of Chen Taijiquan has a section on theory and it discusses the Luo Shu nine palaces, although it's called Luo River in the book. It discusses the bagua (eight gates) and nine palaces. There's a chapter titled Illustrated Explanations of Taiji According to the Luo River Writings. Inside that chapter CX writes - A Taiji student trying to master the silk-reeling method of energy regeneration should practice the following exercise:
and the stepping is based on the nine-palace arrangement of the numbers - Meanwhile, the movement of the head leads both legs from position nine to eight, then seven to four and six, going through five in the center ...

At CXX's/CZQ's school in Chen Village they have a traditional nine palace raised platform, but I've never seen anyone training on it.
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Re: WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:28 am

9palace is a pushing hands stepping pattern I have only found in Wu
Every Wu school I have trained with has it
It is the same stepping pattern that every surf band used in the 60’s
Side step
Back step
Cross over
Forward step
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Re: WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

Postby GrahamB on Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:37 am

It's pretty rad - hidden applications everywhere - 'every step is a kick'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8COV_x7MB4

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Re: WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:19 am

That old surf dude Hank
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Re: WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

Postby BruceP on Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:49 pm

wayne hansen wrote:9palace is a pushing hands stepping pattern I have only found in Wu
Every Wu school I have trained with has it


Yep

My first Wu Style instructor used to demonstrate their practical method in our push hands, but only taught Three Ships footwork and said (paraphrasing) that Nine Palace stepping would become natural after enough fighty exploration of Three Ships. Despite his being 40 years my senior and the 'softer' nature of our push hands practice, he was always in a superior position and one step ahead whenever I would move to gain ground on him - kinda like Lord Marshal. He was a huge fan of pro boxing and often referred to his axiom in conflating boxing and tjq that; "footwork isn't stepping, and stepping isn't footwork"


"every step is a kick"...now there's an original thought, eh

It took a while of testing Three Ships under pressure to really suss out its practicality and to understand that Nine Palace isn't so much about maneuvering as it is about positioning.

Nine Palace isn't stepping per se - it's more to do with footwork. Stepping is used in controlling distance, and footwork in managing range.
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Re: WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:43 pm

Not quite sure what u mean by 3 ships
Never heard that name before
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Re: WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

Postby origami_itto on Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:18 pm

BruceP wrote:Nine Palace isn't stepping per se - it's more to do with footwork. Stepping is used in controlling distance, and footwork in managing range.


Pardon my ignorance, but isn't controlling distance the exact same thing as managing range?

Controlling is a synonym for managing and distance is a synonym for range.
Last edited by origami_itto on Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

Postby BruceP on Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:30 am

Wayne,
it's the same/similar stepping pattern, but the 'middle dot' shown in the video is almost always the other person's lead foot - three ships/feet
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Re: WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:54 am

Thanks
So is that tai chi or Ba kua
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Re: WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

Postby BruceP on Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:01 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Thanks
So is that tai chi or Ba kua



Yes
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Re: WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

Postby origami_itto on Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:48 am

BruceP wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Thanks
So is that tai chi or Ba kua



Yes


I'm not letting up that easy, Bruce.

What's the difference between footwork and stepping?

I mean... stepping is just ONE WAY to use your feet, sure. Legs should work like arms, that's what I take every step is a kick to mean. You can hook, push, pull, strike, displace, pry.... legs are useful.

In a certain sense I suppose stepping is footwork but not all footwork is stepping?

Generally the term footwork I associate with boxing, though, in which it's just stepping and weight shifting.

For the general population, do you ever use agility ladders?
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Re: WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

Postby windwalker on Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:06 am

What's the difference between footwork and stepping?


We use stepping to mean type or kind of step...
Footwork, the pattern the steps are used in...

For example walking, running, and flying crane a kind of stepping

plum flower, 7 star ect type of foot work patterns any of the steps can be practiced with...

For the general population, do you ever use agility ladders?


Plum flower post or poles seem to be similar in purpose.......

Chin, Shifu. "David Chin" Hop gar,

mentioned they used to spar on top of the poles...their poles only 1" in diameter
He said falling off had bad consequences for those that did :o

Image

Some of it can be adapted used in taiji although historically
they had their own stepping practices along with foot work...
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

Postby origami_itto on Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:34 am

windwalker wrote:
What's the difference between footwork and stepping?


We use stepping to mean type or kind of step...
Footwork, the pattern the steps are used in...

For example walking, running, and flying crane a kind of stepping

plum flower, 7 star ect type of foot work patterns any of the steps can be practiced with...

That makes sense, thanks.

For the general population, do you ever use agility ladders?


Plum flower post or poles seem to be similar in purpose.......

An agility ladder is actually flat on the ground, athletes use them to develop... well... agility. A series of squares about 15 feet long, you work up and down the ladder with various stepping patterns, forward and backward. They had me on it in physical therapy after my knee surgery.

Chin, Shifu. "David Chin" Hop gar,

mentioned they used to spar on top of the poles...their poles only 1" in diameter
He said falling off had bad consequences for those that did :o

Image

Some of it can be adapted used in taiji although historically
they had their own stepping practices along with foot work...


Out at the retreat last weekend they had a tractor tire on its side that raises you about two feet off the ground. I don't mess with it due to my knee, but looks like fun.
Last edited by origami_itto on Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WU/Wudang Nine Palace Stepping

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:05 pm

Fighting on 1 inch poles
I would like to see that
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