High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

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High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

Postby Quigga on Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:12 am

https://youtu.be/r0O8DU_IaYE



Just change the link at the very top to:

remove the 's' from http

Change youtu.be/ to youtube.com/

Add an order to the the url that asks what video is being watched, like: watch?v=

Then add the ID number of the video, in this case: r0O8DU_IaYE

Select it all with your mouse or finger on mobile, click youtube in the grey bar above the post writing field

---

Anyhow, sorry for posting another one of his vids. I just come across them on YouTube more often than not and don't think what I see is half bad.

I disagree a bit with his description of wiggling out tho. If you can be song enough and have enough listening ability, you can just lead them into emptiness (lu) almost every time. And adjust your angle of attack or whatever.

If you're already at the point where another person is feeding physical force into your body via offering resistance, pressing onto your structure, holding onto you and trying to keep you in place etc.

Then what he says about maintaining your structure and just overpowering the opponents structure with more force through superior alignment (and more chi) makes sense.

Where this will get difficult is outside of demos where the windows the opponent feeds power into you become really small or hard to take advantage of. So hard to apply out of traditional push hands imo if you rely solely on this against a striker and/or grappler.

This vid is 8 years ago. I guess a lot has changed for him since then.

I wonder tho if any of this stuff works against a person who is completely relaxed and offers no resistance whatsoever. No structure to manipulate or overpower.

Astral transformation of hermetics? Feeding chi directly into a person to control them (not only moving it in your own body)? Power hungry attempts to claim control over another person? Or more power = more wisdom = more responsibility?

The last paragraph is just wild speculation on my part.

I've seen Mark Rasmus do some similar stuff (not talking about the video above) tho he adds a breathing component on it.

As of yet I don't know if there's a superior method. I would have to meet various people to adjust my opinion with practical information. Need to make more money for more traveling.

But certainly there are many different flavors out there. Enjoy the buffet.

Cheers
Quigga

 

Re: High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

Postby Quigga on Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:15 am

Also I don't see why you couldn't add momentum to any of the above.
Quigga

 

Re: High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

Postby everything on Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:26 am

I wonder tho if any of this stuff works against a person who is completely relaxed and offers no resistance whatsoever. No structure to manipulate or overpower.


it doesn't matter, right? if that person is an IMA master and "more song" than you, or has more power, maybe you just cannot. if not, you just punch him in the face (don't really do that), lol.
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Re: High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

Postby Quigga on Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:57 am

No it doesn't really matter, but it's fun sometimes to talk and think about it :-)...

I also know that some PH methods utilize movements where the hands come up above the head, brush the hair, etc.

But elbows can still be 'sunk', even if you have your arms above your head. Else you'd be really limited in your movement... Difficult practice, but then again what's easy :-)...
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Re: High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:08 pm

Didn’t watch the clip
I’ve put myself on a Mizner fast
The main shortcoming I see in the Huang method these days is floating the elbows
Both in the 5 exercises and pushing
I have my theories why but won’t air them
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

Postby origami_itto on Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:32 am

wayne hansen wrote:Didn’t watch the clip
I’ve put myself on a Mizner fast
The main shortcoming I see in the Huang method these days is floating the elbows
Both in the 5 exercises and pushing
I have my theories why but won’t air them


There is a whole aspect to Mizner's form instruction dedicated to the elbows.
After going through the basic shape of each posture individually and the form as a whole, he goes back and teaches the elbow open and close for each movement.
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Re: High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

Postby Quigga on Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:40 am

So it's okay if some methods die out without any proper transmission? Seems like a waste to have to rediscover the wheel again and again
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Re: High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

Postby everything on Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:40 am

i think his underlying point is just "if you can sink here, you can sink there" and "if that sinking works for you via this contact point, it also works via this other contact point". "the whole body is a hand".

now, nobody here is apparently on the same page whatsover about that and may or may not claim we can do that, or what it means, can we do it against jon jones, tai chi is useless, and blah blah blah missing-the-point retorts, but this seems like if you can do that, you don't particularly need a seminar just on elbow.

lots of knowledge is probably already lost, but luckily, out of all human "technologies" probably all of MA can be reinvented/rediscovered (if a zombie apocalypse wipes out most of humanity). doing things like putting humans on the moon again would be much more difficult. you'd need math, physics, an industrial revolution, etc. again. all is not lost.
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Re: High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

Postby robert on Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:36 am

I like that video. The title of the thread seems misleading. AM gives a straightforward explanation of body mechanics. It starts with the basic rule - drop the shoulders, sink the elbows. He says to stay song. If someone tries to lift your elbow stay song. I'm relaxed, I just keep my kua and my elbow connected. If I punch in, my elbow is connected through my kua and shoulder. I can control naturally through the opponent. He points out indirectly that this is peng. If you break, if you collapse, you have no peng. He talks about the body being full, no excess, no hollow. I hope more of his videos in the future follow this style. My opinion.
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Re: High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

Postby Quigga on Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:17 am

Sorry if the title is misleading. He says it's a common vulnerability / gap in the video IIRC. That's where I took it from. No intention to harm him.
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Re: High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

Postby robert on Sat Mar 18, 2023 11:14 am

Quigga wrote:Sorry if the title is misleading. He says it's a common vulnerability / gap in the video IIRC. That's where I took it from. No intention to harm him.

Not a problem. Guess I have a different understanding. It seems to me that he's saying to maintain pengjin, to stay connected. I just noticed it's an old video. So, he does know what he's doing, but he's stopped explaining it coherently to his students?
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

Postby Quigga on Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:44 am

I'm sorry, but where did I imply that he's not trying his best to convey his personal truth to his students? :-(

Just tasting the dish and trying to describe the flavors I'm getting. Tho my perception is obviously lacking. It's like trying to talk about dancing or massaging and trying to convey experiences/viewpoints via not-in-person-exchange only.

Pengjin and connection can again mean vastly different things for 2 people.....

If the students are happy with what they learn and they aren't harmed, what's the problem?...

As long as you don't make people believe they become super killing machines in every scenario there is and thus they become overconfident, ego-inflated,... and maybe get themselves and others in dangerous situations, all's good in my eyes.

I mentioned that this vid was 8 years ago. A lot can happen in that time. Maybe his method is evolving alongside him? That's not for me to say.

I guess I'm just expressing a desire to get involved more deeply with the IMA community again, on and offline. The healing process over the last few years was very intense for me.

I also liked this particular video in some points and in some points not so much, is what I was trying to say while giving benefit of doubt.

Also, if I understand him correctly, collapsing the elbow isn't an issue for having pengjin. He just inflates his arm then, while maintaining peng in the rest of his body.

But I'd have to reflect upon how I use the 8 energies in my own practice to make further comments on this. :-)
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Re: High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

Postby origami_itto on Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:24 am

robert wrote:
Quigga wrote:Sorry if the title is misleading. He says it's a common vulnerability / gap in the video IIRC. That's where I took it from. No intention to harm him.

Not a problem. Guess I have a different understanding. It seems to me that he's saying to maintain pengjin, to stay connected. I just noticed it's an old video. So, he does know what he's doing, but he's stopped explaining it coherently to his students?

I don't dislike Adam for his instructional material. It's sound. The publicly available youtube clips are not the instructional content. I know a lot of us are putting everything we know on the youtube hoping somebody is going to stumble on it and become a disciple I guess. He's got hundreds of dudes paying $1.25 a minute for his instructional videos.

That's practically phone sex money and he's already done all the work.

So what happened? He got smart. Probably got tired of people.

So you sell the product. Step back from the public. Same old song and dance.

There is an african folk tale about how Frog hired the whole town to help build his new house, and when they were finished they got in a line and everybody who helped walked up and shook his hand.

After everybody had a chance to shake his hand, he looked down and his previously normal hand was completely flat. And that's why frogs have flat flipper feet.

The moral is you shouldn't shake hands with everybody. I think Wayne gets that.
Last edited by origami_itto on Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

Postby robert on Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:48 am

Quigga wrote:I'm sorry, but where did I imply that he's not trying his best to convey his personal truth to his students? :-(

That wasn't directed at you, it's just a general question directed to the forum.


Quigga wrote:Pengjin and connection can again mean vastly different things for 2 people.....

From my experience good MAs from China all seem to have the same basic understanding. When I was first trying to learn about it I asked a couple bagua guys, Zhang Huasen and Xie Peiqi, and they were both familiar with it. Do you think what taijiquan people from China write and demonstrate as pengjin is all different?
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Re: High elbows as a vulnerability - Mizner

Postby windwalker on Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:53 am

not much point.....

many seem to have Adam, on the mind

;D
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:50 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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