everything wrote:interesting questions. [...]
so how do we subjectively experience it (and develop it) to the extent possible becomes the question. which is probably the most interesting one here. but counter-intuitively, a lot of (many? most?) people don't like talking about it.
they won't invest the time or energy in typing out a detailed response. They're bored of it, I think.
origami_itto wrote:Ting jin and dong jin are kind of confusing to me.
They are usually translated as listening energy and interpreting energy. Ting jin is a lower (than dong) level, fundamental, skill and dongjin is like the key to it all, so they say. "How can one be beaten when they have mastered interpreting energy"
So how do you understand that? Do you agree?
When it comes to ting jin, I always thought of the listening as a bit metaphorical, like we're talking about a sense in the body primarily. I'm starting to question the role of the ear in the skill. Our sense of balance is rooted in the ear, any disturbance of or change to that balance or our orientation relative to gravity is registered and interpreted as something we may take action about.
origami_itto wrote:Ting jin and dong jin are kind of confusing to me.
They are usually translated as listening energy and interpreting energy. Ting jin is a lower (than dong) level, fundamental, skill and dongjin is like the key to it all, so they say. "How can one be beaten when they have mastered interpreting energy"
So how do you understand that? Do you agree?
"How can one be beaten when they have mastered interpreting energy"
everything wrote:
so how do we subjectively experience it (and develop it) to the extent possible (even at non elite athlete leve) becomes the question. which is probably the most interesting one here. but counter-intuitively, a lot of (many? most?) people don't like talking about it.
練習揉手要有正確的目的。揉手又名推手。揉手的目的是為了校正練習者對拳術理論不正確的 理解,發現並糾正學習拳架時的不正確的練法,以及不正確的揉手方法,避免出現偏差而走入 吱途。有些人對揉手沒有正確的理解,認為揉手只是為了一爭高下,因而在練習時,拳友之間 往往容易產生誤會和摩擦,甚至傷害身體。這種偏差是由於缺少教養或違反武德,而在揉手中 摻雜了非太極拳的拆手、散打,以及反關節擒拿等招術,使揉手形成了較力的緣故。
Practice rubbing hands with the right purpose. Rubbing hands is also known as pushing hands. The purpose of rubbing hands is to correct practitioners' incorrect understanding of boxing theory, discover and correct incorrect training methods when learning boxing, and incorrect hand-rubbing methods, so as to avoid deviations and go into the path of squeaking. Some people do not have a correct understanding of hand rubbing, and think that rubbing hands is just for competition.
Therefore, during practice, misunderstandings and frictions between boxers are often easy to cause, and even harm the body.
This deviation is due to the lack of education or the violation of martial ethics, and non-Tai Chi techniques such as dismantling hands, Sanda, and anti-joint grappling are mixed in the rubbing hands, which makes the rubbing hands more powerful.
不要誤認為揉手就是專門學技擊友人的,一味追求技擊效果。這種錯誤理解和意圖,有可能造 成身體的宿瘓。對此,青少年練習者應當特別注意。
Don't mistakenly think that rubbing hands is for friends who specialize in martial arts, and blindly pursue the effect of martial arts.
This kind of misunderstanding and intention may cause paralysis of the body. In this regard, young practitioners should pay special attention.
練習揉手主要是為了"懂勁兒"為了練成真正的太極功夫,而不是為了爭強好勝,以致不擇手 段。我的老師楊澄甫說,揉手時,要用太極拳的功夫贏人,才能讓對方口服心服。
Practicing rubbing hands is mainly for understanding "勁 (Jin)" and for practicing real Tai Chi Kung Fu, not for the sake of being competitive, so that you will use any means. My teacher Yang Chengfu said that when rubbing hands, you have to use Taijiquan to win people, so that they can be convinced.
origami_itto wrote:When it comes to ting jin, I always thought of the listening as a bit metaphorical,
In taijiquan we're told that "neither can a fly alight or a feather take landing" or something like that without the entire body being set into motion. Could it be that disturbances to our equilibrium as slight as a few ounces or less can be registered in the ear?
So my dawning understanding is that all of these contribute to create ting jin, the perception of movement and vibration in the body, and by extension a greater understanding of things external to the body that affect it directly physically, such as another person trying to push you over.
The quieter and more receptive and more relaxed our minds and bodies and nervous systems are, the more we can perceive and interpret these vibrations, both internal and external to our bodies.
Bao wrote:origami_itto wrote:When it comes to ting jin, I always thought of the listening as a bit metaphorical,
Why metaphorical? Tingjin means sensitivity skill.In taijiquan we're told that "neither can a fly alight or a feather take landing" or something like that without the entire body being set into motion. Could it be that disturbances to our equilibrium as slight as a few ounces or less can be registered in the ear?
Why are you fixated about the ear. Ting means listening with the skin, it has nothing to do with the ear.
So my dawning understanding is that all of these contribute to create ting jin, the perception of movement and vibration in the body, and by extension a greater understanding of things external to the body that affect it directly physically, such as another person trying to push you over.
How would feeling vibration in the body help your sensitivity?
The quieter and more receptive and more relaxed our minds and bodies and nervous systems are, the more we can perceive and interpret these vibrations, both internal and external to our bodies.
What kind of vibrations, what should they feel like inside of the body?
Can you refer to just one(1) of the old masters who spoke about being sensitive about vibrations inside of your body?
Doc Stier wrote:Jasoni-San: As Bao stated above, the 'listening' skill of ting-jin refers to the trained ability to be constantly aware of what is felt at physical points of contact with ever greater sensitivity in order to quickly and effectively respond to same. It has nothing to do with audible sounds heard with the ears.
That's why ting-jin is a primary component in traditional, non-competitive tui-shou training with a partner. The agenda priority is to think less and feel more. However, as always, ymmv.
Loop-shaped canals in your inner ear contain fluid and fine, hairlike sensors that help you keep your balance. At the base of the canals are the utricle and saccule, each containing a patch of sensory hair cells. Within these cells are tiny particles (otoconia) that help monitor the position of your head in relation to gravity and linear motion, such as going up and down in an elevator or moving forward and backward in a car.
wayne hansen wrote:An inch of meditation an inch of Buddha
Jin can only be understood by hours of hands on work with a skilled teacher
It is a gift from hand to hand
That is why zoom teaching is a con and only good for transferring money not Jin
Listening is an attitude and nothing to do with balance or ears
At its finest it is on an atomic level each cell recieving and transmitting
This depends on the skill of the teacher
It can’t be confused with leverage or tricks they lead away from the path
Nor is it hidden in the hippy hoppy world of self delusion
This is real lineage not written on a piece of paper or shown in photos with known masters !
It is real transferable rare a treasure shared by few
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