everything wrote:Kong Bao Long wrote:Personally. I'm very skeptical of a YCF style...
you mean YLC style? There is lots of video and writing about YCF form. There seems to be incredibly small evidence, if any, of YLC form.observer
more than good enough. nobody knows the answer. just idle speculation mostly for fun.
Suppose Jon Jones is the UFC GOAT. But Suppose there were no videos or writing about him, except to say "man was the GOAT, he could do anything."
Then suppose his grandson taught a bunch of people "Jones Style" 80-90 years later. What would people then say about the original Jon Jones style? How lost would it be? Gracie Jiu Jitsu descended from Kano's Judo, and we (the larger MA community) seem to know a ton about those arts and what happened. It seems taijiquan was named for YLC, is very well known (in totally misunderstood ways, even by self-proclaimed experts), yet nobody knows anything about the GOAT for which it was named. Kinda hilarious and sad.
wayne hansen wrote:If your teacher can’t teach you the internal arts without an external apprenticeship you have the wrong teacher
GrahamB wrote:I believe Yang Ban Hou is the first officially documented person teaching in Beijing. But teaching what? Nobody uses the name "Taijiquan" until, I think, 1912? `interestingly around the same time Zhan Sanfeng get added to the origin story...
GrahamB wrote:What if YLC didn't have a set form? I think it's quite possible that the smokey figure of Yang LuChan (assume he did exist, there are no actual records) was a kind of freewheeling shaman/taoist type guy skilled in war magic and spirit possession/theatrical dance as much as martial arts, who never did the same form twice. Hence why there are so many variations in his lineage (Wu/Hou/Sun/Li/Yang/Wu/24 step, etc)
I believe Yang Ban Hou is the first officially documented person teaching in Beijing. But teaching what? Nobody uses the name "Taijiquan" until, I think, 1912? `
origami_itto wrote:GrahamB wrote:I believe Yang Ban Hou is the first officially documented person teaching in Beijing. But teaching what? Nobody uses the name "Taijiquan" until, I think, 1912? `interestingly around the same time Zhan Sanfeng get added to the origin story...
Do you have a source to cite for this claim? Off the top of my head there are the writings of Wu Ch'eng-ch'ing (born 1800) that make use of the term. Not sure EXACTLY when they were written but pretty sure it wasn't when he was over 112.
Looking further....
Demystifying China
GrahamB wrote:origami_itto wrote:GrahamB wrote:I believe Yang Ban Hou is the first officially documented person teaching in Beijing. But teaching what? Nobody uses the name "Taijiquan" until, I think, 1912? `interestingly around the same time Zhan Sanfeng get added to the origin story...
Do you have a source to cite for this claim? Off the top of my head there are the writings of Wu Ch'eng-ch'ing (born 1800) that make use of the term. Not sure EXACTLY when they were written but pretty sure it wasn't when he was over 112.
Looking further....
Demystifying China
If you can find me a "taijiquan" before 1912 I'm all ears!... but I talked to an academic historian in my most recent podcast (linked above - it's worth listening to) and he couldn't find anything before 1912.
GrahamB wrote:OK, Mr Frosty... historians tend to deal in source documents, not books about the subject. That's what I'm talking about. Nothing wrong with Wile of course, but taking phrases out of his work without context will just lead to confusion.
The text you posted says:
"Wu apparently names this routine Taijiquan after reading a short handwritten manual said to have been obtained by his brother in a salt store."
"but we really only have the word of Wu's nephew and student Li yuyu for any of this"
So, these are hearsay.
Yes, according to the popular origin story given to us by the Wu and Lis, the name was in use in 1850...but was it really? There is no evidence of this at all.
Find me the name "Taijiquan" published before 1912 is what I'm saying. That would be a rigorous record. I don't believe there is one, but if you find one, great. And not in the title - in the text.
You can look at Li's handwritten document on Brennan translation, apart from the title, the words "Taijiquan" do not appear in the text. The title could easily have been added at a later date. Same for Yang Ban Hou's 1875 text in Taijiquan - there is no mention of the name Taijiquan in the text - you can read it on Brennan.
The Tai Chi classic refers to the art once, and it calls it "long boxing".
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