Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 7:26amGreat post on the Shen Wu forum from Tim. Rings true to me Smiley
In response to:
"When judo was formed, Kano took all the kill aspects of jujitsu out to make it a sport (safe) so in effect watered it down, the contests that took place were for sport, no killing allowed. jujitsu practioners study the whole art not just a portion. it might have been a little different if they were fighting for there lives.
i dont jab at different arts just say what i see, when you turn any art into a sport and train for sport you limit what you do to make it safe and so we see many styles that are a meer shadow of there former glory ie check out half the taiji practioners who have no concept of the fighting art."
He writes:
"The important point to remember about Kano's synthesis and modification of classical Jujutsu is that by removing the more dangerous techniques, thereby allowing for realistic training against resistance and applying a more modern methodology of teaching, his students, many with only a relatively short period of training were able to defeat the best representatives of virtually every other classical style. Why? Because a large portion of the technical repetoire in classical styles include "deadly" techniques that preclude realistic sparring practice. If you don't practice it for real, you can't do it for real.
Virtually without exception, any martial art that claims it's techniques are too "deadly" to practice in a live, fully resistive sparring format will produce students far less capable of actually fighting than styles that include practical techniques and live training, including the combat sports.
Taijiquan is a good example. Originally, the Taijiquan technical syllabus was primarily made up of throwing and standing grappling techniques. There were far less striking techniques and they were of secondary importance. There was no concept of "dim mak" or death touches. The heavy wrestling/grappling emphasis allowed Taijiquan fighters to spar full out, with little fear of infliciting serious injury. The skills developed made them formidable fighters. It's important to realize techniques that can be safely practiced live (throws and joint locks for example) can be used to cause serious injury when applied "for real" against opponents that are unprepared to be thrown and are thrown full force. Joint locks also become debilitating fight-enders when the one applying them does not stop when the receiver signals defeat."
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 11:27amQFMFT. tim cartmell rules. thanks for posting this graham.
SC 4evah! Grin
FYI, is a saying in china that supports this.
san (3) nian quan, dang nian jiao
it means "3 years of fist training, is equal to the first year of shuajiao training"
Posted by: Pat Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 12:35pmTim nailed it. i am a big fan of that guy and i haven't even met him Grin
Posted by: Rob Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 12:40pmI agree, that's a good post.
And in that context, what puzzles me is why those Chen style wrestling competitions always get such a lukewarm reception over here. They seem to me a great way to show who's got some actual taiji skill, but usually people just say oh that's not taiji that's wrestling, and dismiss it.
Why is that?
Posted by: charles Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 12:49pmon May 6th, 2008, 12:40pm, Rob wrote:
And in that context, what puzzles me is why those Chen style wrestling competitions always get such a lukewarm reception over here. They seem to me a great way to show who's got some actual taiji skill, but usually people just say oh that's not taiji that's wrestling, and dismiss it.
Why is that?
Uhm, could it be because that's not taiji that's wrestling? Shocked
Posted by: Rob Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 12:56pmSo taiji has no wrestling?
Posted by: JAB Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 12:57pmRob-
As I have always stated, people over here (in the west I presume is what you mean) have no clue what true combatives are in regard to the "internal" martial arts! Taiji is especially poorly represented in this fashion, and perhaps it is the same over "there," as I have never been, only heard stories.
I had learned Taiji and push hands from past teachers, but never pursued it because what they taught was not combative IMO. When I met Tim and became his student I started to learn Sun Taiji, and inquired about push hands. 1/2 an hour later I was wiped out from getting tossed on my ass over and over again! I said "This is different than the PH I have been exposed to." And with a quirky smile Tim states, "I know."
Basically how I was taught PH is wrestling. The highest form of PH IMO. Students come to me and want to learn PH and then I start to wrestle them and they look confused because of the bunk they have been exposed to over "here" is not even remotely close! Now I am not saying any one way is THE way, but I can promise you this....students of mine or Tims will be much more prepared for the realities of modern combatives training for one month with us, than 95% of the others out there training PH and Taiji!
But then again mine is a biased and skewed perspective. What do I know!?
Cheers
Jake Cool
Posted by: Peacedog Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 12:57pmThere's no crying in baseball!
Posted by: Rob Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 1:16pmWell the terminology certainly throws people sometimes. Those Chen events I was talking about are usually called push hands competitions, but I feel it'd be better to just call it wrestling, and distinguish it from the usual type of p/h, which is obviously a very important part of training in it's own right (in taiji in any case).
Posted by: charles Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 1:41pmon May 6th, 2008, 12:56pm, Rob wrote:
So taiji has no wrestling?
Of course it does.
EDIT: but not all wrestling is Taiji.
Posted by: Buddy Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 2:25pmGod, Don't let some people on the TCC list get wind of this thread.
Posted by: Rob Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 2:28pmWell judging by the internet forums, there seems to be a need for something. They say taiji practitioners are holding themselves aloof, they're keeping themselves pure, they don't want to be tested.
It'd be worth promoting and participating in wresting competitions just to stop the whining.
(Even with my terrible level of fitness and with no combat training to speak of, I'll put myself forward for 2 one minute rounds.)
Posted by: Rob Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 2:34pmOh I didn't see Buddy's post when I posted. Maybe they're saying something different on the TCC list.
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 2:41pmI think buddy is saying the same thing you are, rob Wink
Posted by: Rob Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 3:54pmon May 6th, 2008, 1:41pm, charles wrote:
EDIT: but not all wrestling is Taiji.
That's a good point, but I think it's something that can only really be discussed AFTER the event, after the bout, when I'm sweating like a pig in my dressing room.
Hopefully my teacher will be there, going over everything that happened, and helping me understand what's what.
It's a learning experience.
Posted by: Rob Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 5:27pmYo Nianfong
I just meant my post wouldn't make much sense if someone thought it was a response to Buddy's, since I was talking about attitudes I hear on here/Red Leaves/Chen Wired. (I never go on any other forums Cheesy)
Cheers.
Posted by: Ian Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 6:32pmon May 6th, 2008, 12:40pm, Rob wrote:
I agree, that's a good post.
And in that context, what puzzles me is why those Chen style wrestling competitions always get such a lukewarm reception over here. They seem to me a great way to show who's got some actual taiji skill, but usually people just say oh that's not taiji that's wrestling, and dismiss it.
Why is that?
Because they tend to stand around a lot and they don't use their legs Grin
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 6:38pmas a shuaijiao and taiji practitioner, I can say that the push hands competitions are usually not taiji. and they're not wrestling--they're BAD wrestling.
Posted by: Ian Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 7:02pmThat's what they look like to me.
You get people wearing shuaijiao jackets, using hard grabs, bodies bent forward (persistently. bears no resemblance to either the form or cooperative push hands)... overall it looks like they want to do shuaijiao, not taiji.
But then they stand there in zhongding, displaying hardly any footwork, and they don't use their legs to complete the throws.
So these push hands matches end up looking like perplexing, brute force, non-technical shuaijiao matches, i.e. bad wrestling.
Posted by: charles Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 7:35pmon May 6th, 2008, 3:54pm, Rob wrote:
It's a learning experience.
Yes it teaches them predominantly how to use brute force against brute force. Whoever is faster, bigger and stronger, and sometimes has the better technique, wins.
Posted by: Rob Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 7:42pmWell I'm sure everyone can think of a lame taiji wrestling example, but why focus on that? Why focus on the negative?
I'm thinking more of stuff like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw This isn't an actual competition, but more a lesson in the kind of wrestling I'm talking about. I hope I get a few lessons like this in the weeks leading up to my bout Roll Eyes , not that it'll necessarily do me much good.
Posted by: Rob Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 7:48pmThat post was responding to Ian and Fong. I'll have to get back to Charles' later.
Posted by: charles Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 8:00pmon May 6th, 2008, 7:42pm, Rob wrote:
I'm thinking more of stuff like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw That's fine.
In my opinion, there is much more subtle skill displayed here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEll31fqj2M Posted by: Formosa Neijia Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 8:15pmon May 6th, 2008, 7:26am, GrahamBonaparte wrote:
Because a large portion of the technical repetoire in classical styles include "deadly" techniques that preclude realistic sparring practice. If you don't practice it for real, you can't do it for real.
Virtually without exception, any martial art that claims it's techniques are too "deadly" to practice in a live, fully resistive sparring format will produce students far less capable of actually fighting than styles that include practical techniques and live training, including the combat sports.
I would be much more convinced of this if Japanese warriors hadn't been cutting each other down for two thousand years without even a hint of practicing kendo.
There are ways for more destructive techniques to be practiced than what is discussed in the quote.
I agree with what Tim says about sports to a certain extent, but this one takes it a bit too far IMO.
Dave C.
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 11:34pmuh I believe they actually did use shinai a long time ago. or bokken at the very least, so they'd train without live blades.
wooden/bamboo swords + armor = non-lethal combat at full force.
Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 12:30am
on May 6th, 2008, 8:15pm, Formosa Neijia wrote:
I would be much more convinced of this if Japanese warriors hadn't been cutting each other down for two thousand years without even a hint of practicing kendo.
Dave C.
Well, to me it sort of sounds like you're agreeing with him? Those Japanese warriors (ok, that sounds too movie fantasy for me - how about 'soldiers'?) were actually practicing it for real in battles!
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 12:51amper wikipedia, shinai have been around since the Edo period:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinai bokken (bokutoo) have been around since japanese swordsmanship has existed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokken both are non-lethal alternatives to the live blade.
Posted by: Eric Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 1:18amYes, bokuto were used for training, but there is no equivalent to sparring/wrestling in the old Japanese sword methods.
Posted by: iWalkTheCircle Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 1:33amon May 6th, 2008, 6:38pm, nianfong wrote:
as a shuaijiao and taiji practitioner, I can say that the push hands competitions are usually not taiji. and they're not wrestling--they're BAD wrestling.
this time in taiwan I pushHands with the national champion PH people....
at standing still PH i lost very badly (feet not allow to move, no head lock, nor pulling).
at moving PH i did OK (OK meanings they push me out the circle a couple times, & I throw him a few times with headLocks).
I do think training PH while standing still is a good drill to built root and learn the basics.....
BUT to do moving TCC PH is kinda point less, why not just do SC.
cheers,
JH =)
Posted by: patrickvoid Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 2:19ami dont get what kind of pushing hands you guys learned?
the point of pushing hands is, to issue force at the point of contact(the goal of pushing hands).
at the point you and your opponent are touching hands you are in control, if you are friendly your opponent cannot move even an inch. but if you are fighting for your live or in competition, the moment your opponent touches your hand, he is on his ass!
now why is this so hard to do?
because most people neglect STRENGTH training. im talking about whole body strength or structural strength. all the do is soft training, to be soft is neccesary to use whole body strength but alone its useless. a good way to get that kind of strength is working with heavy weapons or static push ups or ZZ with isometric work or very slow and low form training(slow and low that is the tempo;) )
if you work with a partner with the same strategy(just concentre on being soft and finding your opponents center) then its much more easier the get him on the ground or of balance. but if your partner uses strength too then the he literally blocks the way to his center and thats why you see so many people shoving each other around.
Posted by: bartekb Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 3:36amI do not think push ups utilize coordinated body.
The problem with pushing hand I had was - he moment somebody stiffens using brute strength to oppose he should be smacked straight in the head - he lost his listening ability so it shouldn't be a problem to hit him freely , of course this is forbidden in tuishou so you can be quite successful with it using brute strengthSmiley
This is also why I always hated tuishou, especially done with strangers or people not understanding the purpose. I preferred much more to do it with controlled power palms, knees, elbows.
Posted by: Buddy Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 6:32am" both are non-lethal alternatives to the live blade."
or not, Musashi comes to mind.
Posted by: wkfung108 Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 7:09amIf you don't think push ups require a coordinated body, you're doing them wrong. Pushups are one of the most underrated exercises out there. IMO, anyone who can get out of bed and walk unassisted should be ripping off a set every day.
I'm not a taiji guy, but it seems to me that if someone stiffens, uses brute force and loses his ability to listen, you can do any number of things to him. Yes, he DESERVES to be smacked in the head, but you should be able to also push or pull him off balance and break his stance, or to otherwise control him.
Barring strikes during pushhands seems to me to be an excellent way to force you to develop skills other than striking. I'd view the restriction as a challenge to myself--a puzzle.
Plus, it probably reduces school liability insurance rates Wink
on May 7th, 2008, 3:36am, bartekb wrote:I do not think push ups utilize coordinated body.
The problem with pushing hand I had was - he moment somebody stiffens using brute strength to oppose he should be smacked straight in the head - he lost his listening ability so it shouldn't be a problem to hit him freely , of course this is forbidden in tuishou so you can be quite successful with it using brute strengthSmiley
This is also why I always hated tuishou, especially done with strangers or people not understanding the purpose. I preferred much more to do it with controlled power palms, knees, elbows.
Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 8:10amCan you share with us your skill of co-ordinated body push ups? I thought you just kept your torso and legs straight in good form and used your arms....?
Posted by: wkfung108 Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 8:43am
Nothing mystical about it.
To keep your torso and legs straight while in a pushup position, you need to engage a variety of muscles in those areas. To keep them straight while you're actually doing a pushup, you need to coordinate the muscles with the up-down momentum you're generating.
So if you do a pushup, you're already working your whole body, and though I will concede that you shoulders, upper back, and triceps probably get the most obvious benefit, if you take the proverbial 98 lb skinny weakling and have him do nothing but pushups as training over a period of months, at the end, his core and legs will have gotten stronger as well.
A lot of the pushup variants can add to this whole body thing. Prop one (or both) ends on a swiss ball and work the legs and torso and back even more, for example. Or do what I was told is called an "iron cross" pushup (basically, do a pushup, and in the up position, rotate your body along the vertical axis until your chest is facing one side (instead of the floor), your weight is on one extended arm and one leg while the other arm extends toward the ceiling.)
By most or all definitions of "internal," pushups don't qualify as an internal exercise. But it's definitely a whole body/coordinated body exercise. And while pushups might not provide the same benefits that (for example) san ti or silk reeling provide, those exercises won't give you the same benefits that pushups give you either.
on May 7th, 2008, 8:10am, GrahamBonaparte wrote:
Can you share with us your skill of co-ordinated body push ups? I thought you just kept your torso and legs straight in good form and used your arms....?
Posted by: Rob Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 9:18amon May 6th, 2008, 8:00pm, charles wrote:
That's fine.
In my opinion, there is much more subtle skill displayed here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEll31fqj2M Hi Charles
I'd leave aside for now the question of subtlty. All that's important for the sake of this argument is that the clip I posted shows actual taiji skills, AND it's competition-style wrestling.
Basically most Chen Village lines seem to agree with that Tim C quote, because they practice this type of wrestling extensively. Why they value it and we don't, I don't really know.
It might be the case that here in the west we're still picking and choosing the bits of the curriculum we like and discarding the rest, instead of really taking it seriously.
Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 9:24amon May 7th, 2008, 8:43am, wkfung108 wrote:
Nothing mystical about it.
To keep your torso and legs straight while in a pushup position, you need to engage a variety of muscles in those areas. To keep them straight while you're actually doing a pushup, you need to coordinate the muscles with the up-down momentum you're generating.
So if you do a pushup, you're already working your whole body, and though I will concede that you shoulders, upper back, and triceps probably get the most obvious benefit, if you take the proverbial 98 lb skinny weakling and have him do nothing but pushups as training over a period of months, at the end, his core and legs will have gotten stronger as well.
A lot of the pushup variants can add to this whole body thing. Prop one (or both) ends on a swiss ball and work the legs and torso and back even more, for example. Or do what I was told is called an "iron cross" pushup (basically, do a pushup, and in the up position, rotate your body along the vertical axis until your chest is facing one side (instead of the floor), your weight is on one extended arm and one leg while the other arm extends toward the ceiling.)
By most or all definitions of "internal," pushups don't qualify as an internal exercise. But it's definitely a whole body/coordinated body exercise. And while pushups might not provide the same benefits that (for example) san ti or silk reeling provide, those exercises won't give you the same benefits that pushups give you either.
I think the confusion lies in what you think the term "co-ordinated body" means, and what that term means to other people, especially the sort you'd find on an Internet forum about internal martial arts.
Posted by: patrickvoid Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 9:33amdo static push ups, and very slow rep push ups.
push ups just working arms is nonsense ultra
they train your arms, neck, back and abs.
what use is whole body strength if your muscles are so weak you cannot push yourself up the floor. even all your muscles together cannot issue enough force to uproot someone on his ass. you have to imagine your body as a chain.
if somewhere is a weak muscle the chain will break
Posted by: wkfung108 Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 9:40amOK, fair enough.
So for an internal martial artist, what is a "coordinated body"? I assume from your response that there is some meaning beyond "using a large portion, if not all, of your body as an efficient, cohesive unit "?
on May 7th, 2008, 9:24am, GrahamBonaparte wrote:
I think the confusion lies in what you think the term "co-ordinated body" means, and what that term means to other people, especially the sort you'd find on an Internet forum about internal martial arts.
Posted by: patrickvoid Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 9:46amthe power comes from all muscles working in harmony, not for eg. just your shoulder muscles or just your biceps.
Posted by: JessOBrien Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 9:51amI used to do a lot of push ups. I learned them from the Tang Shou Tao's Fu Hu Gong set. They gotta lotta pushups!!
The downside was that I was making my shoulders kinda stiff. One of my friends was whipping my ass because his arms were so limber and flexible at the shoulder. I had to quit pushups in order to work on letting go of my shoulder tension. It's helped a lot.
Not that you couldn't do pushups and have soft shoulders, but I was unable to do both, at least at that point.
-Jess O
Posted by: charles Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 9:54amon May 7th, 2008, 9:18am, Rob wrote:
It might be the case that here in the west we're still picking and choosing the bits of the curriculum we like and discarding the rest, instead of really taking it seriously.
Could be.
Posted by: patrickvoid Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 10:08amon May 7th, 2008, 9:51am, JessOBrien wrote:
I
The downside was that I was making my shoulders kinda stiff. One of my friends was whipping my ass because his arms were so limber and flexible at the shoulder. I had to quit pushups in order to work on letting go of my shoulder tension. It's helped a lot.
Yeah, the secret is to find a harmony between the exercises. I do about 70% the normal internal stuff and 30% exercises that work the structural strength(ZZ, push ups, heavy weapons etc.)
Posted by: strawdog Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 10:30amHow did a post about the value of combative training with a resisting partner become a post about doing push-ups?
Seriously... Roll Eyes
Posted by: JAB Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 10:47amBecause no matter where it goes, EF is still EF brother Wink
Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 11:20amon May 7th, 2008, 9:40am, wkfung108 wrote:
OK, fair enough.
So for an internal martial artist, what is a "coordinated body"? I assume from your response that there is some meaning beyond "using a large portion, if not all, of your body as an efficient, cohesive unit "?
Well there is no one answer to that. Maybe look at the 'what is internal' thread in the main forum but at rough guess I'd say when you say coordinated around here it doesn't mean just using or activating various muscle groups at once, it generally is thought of as using them in harmony in a unified action, say to transmit a wave of force from the foot through the body to the hand in a relaxed manner, say in a push.
Posted by: wkfung108 Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 12:53pmI have looked at that thread -- and am enjoying it.
But it seems to me that however we define internal, it's not the same as "coordinated." (Why use two words to refer to the exact same concept?)
I'm thinking that (again, regardless of how we define internal), internal body mechanics must involve coordinated body movement; but body movement can be coordinated without being internal. I.e., all internal movements are coordinated movements, but not all coordinated movements are internal movements.
As has been noted, pushups aren't really the point of this thread. So I'll leave it at this: I do believe that many multi-muscle exercises train and require coordinated body control and movement, including the pushup, the deadlift, and most Olympic lifts.
- Kent
on May 7th, 2008, 11:20am, GrahamBonaparte wrote:
Well there is no one answer to that. Maybe look at the 'what is internal' thread in the main forum but at rough guess I'd say when you say coordinated around here it doesn't mean just using or activating various muscle groups at once, it generally is thought of as using them in harmony in a unified action, say to transmit a wave of force from the foot through the body to the hand in a relaxed manner, say in a push.
Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 1:19pmon May 7th, 2008, 12:53pm, wkfung108 wrote:
But it seems to me that however we define internal, it's not the same as "coordinated." (Why use two words to refer to the exact same concept?)
Well, to be fair I did try to explain what I meant without using the word 'internal' Grin
But enough of this, you're right. I'm off to do some press ups instead. Internal ones at that!
My doctors recommend exercise.
Posted by: Rob Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 1:33pmAnyway, Charles... !
It's interesting to hear your teacher's perspective, but the fact remains this practice is out there in some lines, so ideally people learning the curriculum of those lines should be doing it too . In Chen Xiaoxing's school in Chen Village, for example, even the little kids are doing it and it looks like a lot of fun.
Cheers.
Posted by: bailewen Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 3:25pmon May 6th, 2008, 7:42pm, Rob wrote:
Well I'm sure everyone can think of a lame taiji wrestling example, but why focus on that? Why focus on the negative?
I'm thinking more of stuff like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw This isn't an actual competition, but more a lesson in the kind of wrestling I'm talking about. I hope I get a few lessons like this in the weeks leading up to my bout Roll Eyes , not that it'll necessarily do me much good.
Very nice find. Combat applicable. "Real". I don't get the sense that that was a demo dummy at all. Felt more like a real student doing his best to keep his feet under him.
on May 6th, 2008, 8:00pm, charles wrote:
That's fine.
In my opinion, there is much more subtle skill displayed here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEll31fqj2M Perhaps.
I don't think it so much more subtle. I think it is just more light hearted play than the other one. The first one was more serious training. The second was far less formal and more of an exploration where the first one was a clear demonstration and explanation of a technique.
Posted by: johnwang Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 5:52pmon May 7th, 2008, 1:33am, iWalkTheCircle wrote:
this time in taiwan I pushHands with the national champion PH people....
at standing still PH i lost very badly (feet not allow to move, no head lock, nor pulling).
at moving PH i did OK (OK meanings they push me out the circle a couple times, & I throw him a few times with headLocks).
I do think training PH while standing still is a good drill to built root and learn the basics.....
BUT to do moving TCC PH is kinda point less, why not just do SC.
cheers,
JH =)
I didn't know standing still PH does not allow "pulling".
If you have dynamic rooting then you don't need static rooting. Being able to stand on snowboard solid still for 30 minutes without moving can not help you to go down that 45 degree slop with 30 miles per hour speed.
Do those national champion PH people know any counters for your head lock?
Posted by: iWalkTheCircle Posted on: May 12th, 2008, 11:11amon May 7th, 2008, 5:52pm, johnwang wrote:
I didn't know standing still PH does not allow "pulling".
If you have dynamic rooting then you don't need static rooting. Being able to stand on snowboard solid still for 30 minutes without moving can not help you to go down that 45 degree slop with 30 miles per hour speed.
Do those national champion PH people know any counters for your head lock?
after i throw the first guy with maHua chun & headLock, followed by legBlocking....
the 2nd and 3rd student just push me away so i canNot get close for headLock.
i wish i can kick their knee to move in, but this is a unspoken NO-NO in all situations unless it is life/death/MMA.
the students did not know any good counter for a good headLock. The teacher is VERY good, I could not do anyThing to him at all.
Posted by: Rakushun Posted on: May 12th, 2008, 8:21pmon May 12th, 2008, 11:11am, iWalkTheCircle wrote:
i wish i can kick their knee to move in.
If you wish to kick their knee to move in, you should play with MMA guys. Why play the pushhand game with taijiquan guys who do not train kicking? You should advance to playing with MMA guys where kicking is allowed and welcomed. Have fun! Grin
Posted by: JAB Posted on: Today at 8:19amGreat point bro!